Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by theholycow »

Teamwork wrote:And then if you couldn't splurge an extra 3-4k- 10-12k on the used market could get you something pretty decent.
The last time I looked into it, getting a loan for a used car meant a significantly higher interest rate, higher payments, and higher total amount paid than the same amount on a new car loan. That could mean 3-4k less to spend in the used car market, so now you're looking at an older car with more miles. If you're the sort who just wants basic transportation with a promise* of new car reliability/new car cost of ownership predictability/no gambling on the previous owner's maintenance and driving habits, a bottom-of-the-barrel new car can make sense. It can also make sense for some types of corporate fleet.

There's also new car smell...but maybe I'm the only one who loves those toxic fumes that much. Then again, I'm a guy who has spent the last 6 years driving an ugly beat-up antique, so I guess it's not THAT important to me.

*: Of course, that's not to say that the promise is always delivered by Mitsubishi or even Nissan, but a new Versa should be a pretty decently safe purchase as far as that's concerned.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by AHTOXA »

Teamwork wrote:
AHTOXA wrote:Yeah, a mid-trim Sonic with non-turbo 1.8 can be had for 14-15 easy. And there are probably better deals out there.
That's generally my problem with "cheap" sub compacts. 3-4k extra can get you in something noticeably better, more refined, and with actual up to date technology. I'm not talking about like blu tooth in a vehicle but something that doesn't use rear drum brakes...

And then if you couldn't splurge an extra 3-4k- 10-12k on the used market could get you something pretty decent.
I think drum brakes get a rather undeserved bad rep. Aside from being a pain in the ass to work work as compared to disk brakes, they are perfectly fine, especially on a smaller and lighter vehicle that isn't designed for performance driving of any sort.

On a heavier SUV or truck - drums are terrible. They fill with mud offroad and that wears them down extremely fast because the mud isn't removed from the inside much and keep sanding everything down. That, and disks perform better when stopping heavy trucks with heavy loads.

On a car like the Sonic, the drums are just fine. I never had issues with them when I had my Sonic.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by IMBoring25 »

They're also more prone to grabbiness and to loss of effectiveness when wet.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by potownrob »

thought y'all might like this:

ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by Teamwork »

AHTOXA wrote: I think drum brakes get a rather undeserved bad rep. Aside from being a pain in the ass to work work as compared to disk brakes, they are perfectly fine, especially on a smaller and lighter vehicle that isn't designed for performance driving of any sort.

On a heavier SUV or truck - drums are terrible. They fill with mud offroad and that wears them down extremely fast because the mud isn't removed from the inside much and keep sanding everything down. That, and disks perform better when stopping heavy trucks with heavy loads.

On a car like the Sonic, the drums are just fine. I never had issues with them when I had my Sonic.
I disagree here. I had a small car with drum brakes and they were pretty terrible all around. Stopping power, brake feel, and overall inconsistency in pedal feel. Maybe modern units are more advanced and that's where I could be wrong but my experience of a late 90's, compact, with rear drums was pretty abysmal. I never formally calculated it but the stopping distance from 60 from that car to my new car at the time (Kia Forte) had to be 50+ feet at least or maybe the KIA instilled more confidence. I knew if it was less then ideal conditions with rear drum brakes to basically wait forever to actually slow down the car from a highway speed. The first time I drove a newer car with all four discs coming from my 10+ year old car I nearly put myself through the windshield in the parking lot maneuvers.

I still actually deal with on a semi-regular basis a more modern day car with drum brakes (and no ABS) in the Toyota Matrix. The brakes is without a doubt that cars Achilles heel.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by Rope-Pusher »

Teamwork wrote:
AHTOXA wrote: I think drum brakes get a rather undeserved bad rep. Aside from being a pain in the ass to work work as compared to disk brakes, they are perfectly fine, especially on a smaller and lighter vehicle that isn't designed for performance driving of any sort.

On a heavier SUV or truck - drums are terrible. They fill with mud offroad and that wears them down extremely fast because the mud isn't removed from the inside much and keep sanding everything down. That, and disks perform better when stopping heavy trucks with heavy loads.

On a car like the Sonic, the drums are just fine. I never had issues with them when I had my Sonic.
I disagree here. I had a small car with drum brakes and they were pretty terrible all around. Stopping power, brake feel, and overall inconsistency in pedal feel. Maybe modern units are more advanced and that's where I could be wrong but my experience of a late 90's, compact, with rear drums was pretty abysmal. I never formally calculated it but the stopping distance from 60 from that car to my new car at the time (Kia Forte) had to be 50+ feet at least or maybe the KIA instilled more confidence. I knew if it was less then ideal conditions with rear drum brakes to basically wait forever to actually slow down the car from a highway speed. The first time I drove a newer car with all four discs coming from my 10+ year old car I nearly put myself through the windshield in the parking lot maneuvers.

I still actually deal with on a semi-regular basis a more modern day car with drum brakes (and no ABS) in the Toyota Matrix. The brakes is without a doubt that cars Achilles heel.
The rear brakes have an easy time compared to the front brakes. Reduction of brake fade was prolly the biggest reason to switch from Drum to Disk brakes on the front wheels. Rear brake fade does not often rear its ugly head. If your vehicle requires a lot of force to stop quickly, that can be more of a matter of the amount of power assist than anything else. You don't really need humongous, multi-piston disk brakes to enable you to lock up a wheel, but they sure help improve fade resistance from repeated application and also improve modulation.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by theholycow »

Teamwork, I'm inclined to believe that your experiences aren't about drum vs. disc concept or even execution, but rather one model vs. another or even one car vs. another. There are plenty of places in a brake system to make it less or more satisfactory. I've driven good and bad rear drums, and I've driven good and bad 4w discs.

One of the worst qualities of my truck is its 4 wheel disc brakes. That's not because it shouldn't have discs, but because the entire system is lame. If they were gonna cheap out on it anyway then IMO drums would have produced better results for the same half-assed effort/budget, but if they had just put a little more into the brake system then the 4 wheel discs would have been fine.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by Rope-Pusher »

There are a lot of automotive design descriptions that are "Marketable" - the general public associates them as being superior to other types of designs, but it really depends on how the vehicle is to be used and how well the "Marketable Design Feature" is executed. In a "Mad Max" world, I'd rather have a gravity-fed carburetor for my fuel system and an ignition system based on a points-n-condensor distributor. Corvettes and Vipers take advantage of the tight packaging that cam-n-block 2-valve engine can offer and they aren't slouches for power either. "There are a myriad of methods available for putting distance between a feline and its epidermis"

Here are some examples of marketable design features that aren't always superior:

4-wheel disk brakes

DOHC

SOHC

Direct Injection

Rack-n-Pinion Steering

Leather Seats

Independent Suspension

Dual Exhaust

...and let's not forget "Heavy Duty", which typically means nothing in particular unless it is stated exactly what in particular is better.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by potownrob »

Rope-Pusher wrote:There are a lot of automotive design descriptions that are "Marketable" - the general public associates them as being superior to other types of designs, but it really depends on how the vehicle is to be used and how well the "Marketable Design Feature" is executed. In a "Mad Max" world, I'd rather have a gravity-fed carburetor for my fuel system and an ignition system based on a points-n-condensor distributor. Corvettes and Vipers take advantage of the tight packaging that cam-n-block 2-valve engine can offer and they aren't slouches for power either. "There are a myriad of methods available for putting distance between a feline and its epidermis"

Here are some examples of marketable design features that aren't always superior:

4-wheel disk brakes

DOHC

SOHC

Direct Injection

Rack-n-Pinion Steering

Leather Seats

Independent Suspension

Dual Exhaust

...and let's not forget "Heavy Duty", which typically means nothing in particular unless it is stated exactly what in particular is better.
don't forget friggin' direct ignition :shock: :x :roll: 8)
manny fond memories of changing coil packs in the almighty VQ30 :) :lol:
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by AHTOXA »

Teamwork wrote:
AHTOXA wrote: I think drum brakes get a rather undeserved bad rep. Aside from being a pain in the ass to work work as compared to disk brakes, they are perfectly fine, especially on a smaller and lighter vehicle that isn't designed for performance driving of any sort.

On a heavier SUV or truck - drums are terrible. They fill with mud offroad and that wears them down extremely fast because the mud isn't removed from the inside much and keep sanding everything down. That, and disks perform better when stopping heavy trucks with heavy loads.

On a car like the Sonic, the drums are just fine. I never had issues with them when I had my Sonic.
I disagree here. I had a small car with drum brakes and they were pretty terrible all around. Stopping power, brake feel, and overall inconsistency in pedal feel. Maybe modern units are more advanced and that's where I could be wrong but my experience of a late 90's, compact, with rear drums was pretty abysmal. I never formally calculated it but the stopping distance from 60 from that car to my new car at the time (Kia Forte) had to be 50+ feet at least or maybe the KIA instilled more confidence. I knew if it was less then ideal conditions with rear drum brakes to basically wait forever to actually slow down the car from a highway speed. The first time I drove a newer car with all four discs coming from my 10+ year old car I nearly put myself through the windshield in the parking lot maneuvers.

I still actually deal with on a semi-regular basis a more modern day car with drum brakes (and no ABS) in the Toyota Matrix. The brakes is without a doubt that cars Achilles heel.
I would argue that the highlighted section of your statement comes from the front brakes and has very little to do with the rears. With only about 30% braking done by the rear wheels, fronts do most of the work, and how those are set up is what translates to the driver.

With the drum brakes in the back and disks upfront, the Sonic's brake feel was very good. Brakes felt strong, never faded even when I did try to push it through the only two corners in Texas and never left me wanting more power. Aside from the time when the brake booster failed and when the car was in-boost, the brake pedal was a brick. Haha, but that's a whole other matter.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by tankinbeans »

I don't know that I would be able to tell the difference with the way I drive; I get up to my desired speed pretty quickly; I leave a pretty good buffer; I coast as much as possible and don't generally find myself in panic stopping situations.

However, if two similar cars requiring a brake job where one has discs and the other drums were in my driveway, I'll tell you which I'd prefer all day.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by theholycow »

tankinbeans wrote:However, if two similar cars requiring a brake job where one has discs and the other drums were in my driveway, I'll tell you which I'd prefer all day.
I used to feel the same way, but not so much anymore. Some rear discs have PITA parking brakes, and some drum systems actually don't suck so much to work on. Instead of having a million different-but-indistinguishable little high-tension springs, my wife's Pontiac's drums basically just have this one big horseshoe spring. The system works well and I wonder why other drum brakes are so Rube Goldberged. There's still a little more complexity, but OTOH there's so much less struggling with dirty/rusty pins, torn boots, filing the ears on pad backings when they don't slide like they should, etc.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by Rope-Pusher »

theholycow wrote:
tankinbeans wrote:However, if two similar cars requiring a brake job where one has discs and the other drums were in my driveway, I'll tell you which I'd prefer all day.
I used to feel the same way, but not so much anymore. Some rear discs have PITA parking brakes, and some drum systems actually don't suck so much to work on. Instead of having a million different-but-indistinguishable little high-tension springs, my wife's Pontiac's drums basically just have this one big horseshoe spring. The system works well and I wonder why other drum brakes are so Rube Goldberged. There's still a little more complexity, but OTOH there's so much less struggling with dirty/rusty pins, torn boots, filing the ears on pad backings when they don't slide like they should, etc.
Rear drums make for better parking brake systems than drum-n-hat rear brakes. I think it has to do with the brake drum and shoe being kept clean by regular dynamic use, whereas drum-n-hat drums and shoes almost never see dynamic use, aren't kept clean, and so tend to not grip as well as they could.
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by Rope-Pusher »

Hey, Nissan's got nothing on me. I dropped a manual once, slid off a cart from about 3 feet down onto a terrazzo floor just outside the orifice suite......you shudda seen all the prairie dog heads sticking above their cubicle walls when they heard the sound!
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Re: Nissan Versa Drops The Manual in 2017

Post by theholycow »

Rope-Pusher wrote:Rear drums make for better parking brake systems than drum-n-hat rear brakes. I think it has to do with the brake drum and shoe being kept clean by regular dynamic use, whereas drum-n-hat drums and shoes almost never see dynamic use, aren't kept clean, and so tend to not grip as well as they could.
That's part of it.

Also, since parking brakes go largely unused they are low priority with minimal investment. When there is a secondary set of brakes (in the form of drum-in-hat) that only exists for the parking brake it costs more and gets less investment, so the system is half-assed at best, manufactured poorly, and just generally horrible. With drum service brakes they get to just hook up to the service brakes, which have to be decent and are fully invested and are maintained.

I've heard of, but not seen, rear disc systems that actuate the disc brake from the cable rather than having drum-in-hat. I'm curious about their performance and maintenance.
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