Pontiac is Dead
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
The Saturn Astra is a great car, it's got a very MK4 Golf kind of feel to it (with a slightly underpowered engine) but for some reason it hasn't taken off. I do see a few here and there. I think a lot of people want the 5 door version but the 5 door version does not share the sleek body lines as the 3 door version. They're going to be gone soon anyway unless as you said they return to their roots.
There's the Pontiac G3 Wave and G5 Pursuit which is just a badge engineered Chevy Aveo and Cobalt. I don't get the point of that really, but Aveos and G3 Waves are super popular around Vancouver in both the hatch and sedan formats, followed by the Vibe (I'm starting to see just as many of them around as the Matrix) and the G6. The Cobalt/G5 was supposed to be the Civic killer... not.
Pontiac Torrent, yawn.
Pontiac Solstice, great car, not so great sales.
I'm surprised Saab is on the chopping block. Is it the fact that they had way better sales when their cars were ugly but fast? But that product differentiation is no longer there. Just like Saturn.
There's the Pontiac G3 Wave and G5 Pursuit which is just a badge engineered Chevy Aveo and Cobalt. I don't get the point of that really, but Aveos and G3 Waves are super popular around Vancouver in both the hatch and sedan formats, followed by the Vibe (I'm starting to see just as many of them around as the Matrix) and the G6. The Cobalt/G5 was supposed to be the Civic killer... not.
Pontiac Torrent, yawn.
Pontiac Solstice, great car, not so great sales.
I'm surprised Saab is on the chopping block. Is it the fact that they had way better sales when their cars were ugly but fast? But that product differentiation is no longer there. Just like Saturn.
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
The V8's weight would destroy the Solstice's handling. How about a Solstice with the DI 3.6L V6 pushing 273 ft-lbs of torque from almost idle?
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watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
...what about putting a turbo on that DI 3.6?
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watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
...what about putting a turbojet on that Solstice?
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
Saab is likely to become its own company again. GM only ever wanted Saab to steal the technology. There wasnt much interest beyond that since theyre very much a niche car. And by that I mean every 3rd car in New England is a SaabDKaz wrote:I'm surprised Saab is on the chopping block. Is it the fact that they had way better sales when their cars were ugly but fast? But that product differentiation is no longer there. Just like Saturn.
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
Saab isn't likely to be it's own company. Reports on the matter say that Saab, Hummer and Saturn are likely to be sold or killed off as well. It will be sold to another car manufacturer, I think.
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Re: Pontiac Dead.
Buick isn't needed though. Cadillac could have like 2-3 entry level luxury cars, and those alone would fulfill Buick's current purpose. The Escalade could stick around I guess, its a solid money maker and one of GM's few success stories over the past few years. What I'm saying though is that Cadillac should have a central focus, and that should be something similar to BMW. Basically making luxury cars with good performance and driving in mind, instead of producing nasty FWD cars and heavy sports car wannabes. There's no reason for them not to produce cars in the $30,000-$90,000 range with a couple of halo cars, and a couple of entry levels cars in the $20,000 range, similar to BMW's 1-series. I also think that if they primarily used RWD and AWD (no FWD at all) with options for manual transmissions they'd fare MUCH better than they do today.theholycow wrote:Buick is the best selling car in China, the world's fastest expanding automotive market. Buick still sells decently in the US, no need to chop off a profitable limb. Buick is entry/mid-level luxury, and Cadillac is full luxury / performance luxury already. Heard of the CTS-V?
I know the Escalade isn't a race winner, but it's a profit maker and cutting off profitable models would be dumb.
I agree. Government ownership of GM is probably going to be what finishes it off. What I mean by it turning into another Toyota, is that that's what the government has planned for GM. They don't want them making any more sports cars, and to primarily focus on family cars, economy cars, and hybrids. That's basically all that Toyota makes right now. The business plan is too narrow for GM though and they won't be able to un-seat Toyota, they'll end up as a failed "Toyota-wannabe". They'll completely alienate their current consumer base and won't be able to draw any away from Toyota and other imports, basically.THC wrote:That probably isn't going to help matters.
Last edited by Tinton on Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
I was going to say this too, eventually. A good example are the W-Body cars, the Pontiac Grand Prix, Buick Regal, Buick Lacrosse, Buick Century, Chevy Impala, Chevy Lumina, Chevy Monte Carlo, and Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme and Intrigue. All these cars shared the same underpinnings but had different exteriors and different interiors with different features. The drivetrain, suspension, braking, etc and other mechanicals are shared between the cars, though. I don't see how this is that much different from how Honda/Acura and the other imports do it.theholycow wrote:The G3 is the only badge-engineered Pontiac I know of. The rest have different sheet metal, different interiors, and even different mechanical configurations than Chevies on the same platform...same as Toyota/Lexus and VW/Audi platform sharing and better than Honda/Acura does.noob5,000,000 wrote:That is true, but I was talking about the Plymouth Neon (WTF, they didn't even bother renaming it when they rebadged it?) and other Plymouth econoboxes from the '90s. If you think about it, Plymouth and Pontiac are very similar; they both sold rebadged models of cars built by their parent company.
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
The current plan (as of yesterday) is to get a buyer for Saab and continue technology sharing for the time being. There are actually about 30 or so interested parties and ten which GM has responded favorably to. Not all of which are particularly desirable though. The eventual goal, as put forth by Saab brand executives, is to get the company back on its own feet as soon as possible.AHTOXA wrote:Saab isn't likely to be it's own company. Reports on the matter say that Saab, Hummer and Saturn are likely to be sold or killed off as well. It will be sold to another car manufacturer, I think.
Saturn and Hummer on the other hand are pretty much being tossed to the dogs
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
Possibly not.Leedeth wrote:Goddamit. The G8 is a good car, but now it's going to be gone, just like the GTO? What the hell man, all the good cars are disappearing!
http://jalopnik.com/5230928/lapd-to-buy ... olice-cars
No one knows what the hell is going to happen, but there's a lot of rumors flying around that the G8/Commodore will be kept alive and rebranded as a Chevy.
I'm more concerned that the Solstice probably won't survive.
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
If so, this would be a much better outcome than to toss it.watkins wrote:The current plan (as of yesterday) is to get a buyer for Saab and continue technology sharing for the time being. There are actually about 30 or so interested parties and ten which GM has responded favorably to. Not all of which are particularly desirable though. The eventual goal, as put forth by Saab brand executives, is to get the company back on its own feet as soon as possible.AHTOXA wrote:Saab isn't likely to be it's own company. Reports on the matter say that Saab, Hummer and Saturn are likely to be sold or killed off as well. It will be sold to another car manufacturer, I think.
Saturn and Hummer on the other hand are pretty much being tossed to the dogs
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
The thing with Saab is the technology. Only reason GM bought it, and likely the major reason it will be kept alive in some form or another.
Pontiac has unfortunately been on this path for 30 years. 1978 was the top selling year. If they had stuck with a performance oriented product line, they would still be good. But all GM has done to its own brands is to blend them together. They had it right back in the 20s and 30s.
Pontiac has unfortunately been on this path for 30 years. 1978 was the top selling year. If they had stuck with a performance oriented product line, they would still be good. But all GM has done to its own brands is to blend them together. They had it right back in the 20s and 30s.
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
Why did Pontiac created a Jenny Craig drop out to headbutt with the Miata? With a clean sheet design, the best they could come up with was a car that's a couple hundred #s heavier than a Miata, with a truck transmission that intrude on interior, and a complicated folding top. And what was it doing with automatic only G6s when Mazda was selling the red hot chili pepper Speed6?
The only, truly interesting car that Pontiac sells right now is the G8 with the stick. Everything is just the image of excitement. That image works for some, but not for me and I'm not sorry to see it go. If I'm paying that much for a G8, I would go to Cadillac to check out the CTS. Mazda and Subaru give you real sport cars in everything that they sell. List the minivans in North America that comes with manual transmission right now. It's not a Torrent, it's the Mazda5.
The only, truly interesting car that Pontiac sells right now is the G8 with the stick. Everything is just the image of excitement. That image works for some, but not for me and I'm not sorry to see it go. If I'm paying that much for a G8, I would go to Cadillac to check out the CTS. Mazda and Subaru give you real sport cars in everything that they sell. List the minivans in North America that comes with manual transmission right now. It's not a Torrent, it's the Mazda5.
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
They need to whip up something like the GTO with some very sporty improvements.scionkid wrote:Why did Pontiac created a Jenny Craig drop out to headbutt with the Miata? With a clean sheet design, the best they could come up with was a car that's a couple hundred #s heavier than a Miata, with a truck transmission that intrude on interior, and a complicated folding top. And what was it doing with automatic only G6s when Mazda was selling the red hot chili pepper Speed6?
The only, truly interesting car that Pontiac sells right now is the G8 with the stick. Everything is just the image of excitement. That image works for some, but not for me and I'm not sorry to see it go. If I'm paying that much for a G8, I would go to Cadillac to check out the CTS. Mazda and Subaru give you real sport cars in everything that they sell. List the minivans in North America that comes with manual transmission right now. It's not a Torrent, it's the Mazda5.
If they had something along the lines of the GTO with amazing handling, I'd go for it.
But, I'm gonna get a used GTO one of these days anyway...
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Re: Pontiac is Dead
Well Pontiac isn't the only one not giving the manual transmission the love it needs... I'm lucky my wife likes to drive manual but a lot of women can't or don't want to, and they're typically the ones driving minivans and SUVs. Even in two vehicle households, it's sad that more often than not, the men can't have one manual transmission vehicle. Mazda came out with a vehicle unlike anything else in the North American market, catering to the younger crowd who don't need a full size minivan yet (I don't plan to ever need a full size minivan anyway). I'm really hoping that this segment takes off, in Canada I see lots of Mazda 5s and Kia Rondos (only automatic but still...) around but it doesn't seem to be as popular in the US. My boss is in his 50s and just bought a brand new VW Passat CC with 6 speed manual transmission, it's a very, very nice car.scionkid wrote:List the minivans in North America that comes with manual transmission right now. It's not a Torrent, it's the Mazda5.
The only SUVs I can think of available in manual transmission are the Suzuki Grand Vitara, Ford Escape, VW Tiguan, and BMW x3 in the cute-ute segment, Nissan XTerra (last I checked), Toyota FJ Cruiser, and Jeep Wrangler in the truck-like segment and the Porsche Cayenne S in the ridiculously fast with a Grande Latte totally not for offroading segment. Honda and Toyota removed the manual transmission from CRV and RAV4, although it's nice that you can get a fully loaded Honda Accord sedan with manual transmission still (I've seen quite a few arround).
Toyota sucks, the Toyota club I was in was dissing me for not sticking with Toyota but my response was that there was nothing with Toyota that we wanted available with manual transmission, my wife wouldn't go back anyway, she loves the smooth and precise stick shift of the Mazda 5 way better than the old Corolla that was a bit clunky at best and we've both gotten used to the clutch and now love that as well. The only thing Toyota had going for it was the 2ZZ engine and transmission and they killed that off. I guess Mazda is one of the few actually striving to improve the manual transmission. Other than the G8 which I hope gets reborn as a Chevrolet complete with the Corvette engine and transmission and the Vibe which I think is an important car for GM hold on to, I agree I couldn't care less about Pontiac's departure.