New technology will save the classic manual transmission

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New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby Standardshifter » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:50 am

"After few changes to the manual transmission for half a century, all of a sudden there are new and significant updates to the transmission some love, some fear, and most never even think about."

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http://www.torquenews.com/1083/new-tech ... ansmission
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby theholycow » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:40 am

The new trend in manuals is the rev-matching stick shift. Offered in some of the hottest sports cars in the world, this technology might just save the manuals.

I can't imagine there's many people who say "yeah I'd be willing to drive manual if it wasn't for that darned rev-matching"...I think it's the always being required to launch and shift that turns off slush drivers.

For nearly everyone, the advent of the automatic choke was a welcome relief. This is also true of the automatic transmission. Once it became available most drivers chose it, even though manufacturers charged significantly more money for it. So many people chose it, and so few chose the manual, that most new cars don’t come with the option of a manual anymore.

Choke hasn't even existed for the past 25 years, manual or automatic...and automatic choke isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's about as good at choke stuff as early Japanese automatics reportedly were at shifting.
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby DKaz » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:02 pm

Lol I had a manual choke in my 85 and 86 Civic wagons, good times.

I always wondered if a CVT can be made to act like a manual transmission complete with clutch pedal and virtual gears, but it could all be automated if the driver didn't feel like shifting?
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby theholycow » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:37 pm

For that matter, I've often considered similar schemes for traditional automatics where the "clutch pedal" controls the locking/unlocking of the torque converter, or the idea of adding a clutch pedal and shifter to a SMT/DSG/etc and just letting the computer do it when you don't feel like it.
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby six » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:37 pm

theholycow wrote:...or the idea of adding a clutch pedal and shifter to a SMT/DSG/etc...

Clutch-by-wire and shift-by-wire, haha 8)
Because, that's basically what a clutch pedal and shifter would be in an SMG/DSG/PDK/ETC-equipped car. Just switches to tell the computer what to do.
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby theholycow » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:43 pm

six wrote:Clutch-by-wire and shift-by-wire, haha 8)
Because, that's basically what a clutch pedal and shifter would be in an SMG/DSG/PDK/ETC-equipped car. Just switches to tell the computer what to do.

Not necessarily. It may be possible to connect them in a more conventional way, though you won't get an H-pattern with the SMG, nor a normal H-pattern with the DSG (which would probably be more of a Z-pattern). The clutch should be relatively easy to hook up hydraulically. Of course this is most likely not a backyard project done by someone like me, more likely would require real engineers and such.
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby tankinbeans » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:52 pm

The automatic rev-matching tech was kind of a goofy example to use indeed. Many manual drivers I know don't even bother trying to rev-match downshifts and act like a downshift is nothing more than an upshift in reverse. I was one of them until I taught myself how to do it, and practice - making the occasional mistake.

The tech that I would have focused on as making manuals less scary for the average would have been the hill-holder than many manuals come with now.

Hills are what truly scare the bejeebus out of people. I realize that I'm not on them enough to really think about them, and deal with them when I must. I think with the car I have now they would be easier to tolerate because I know more or less where the engagement point is, whereas my Kia was kind of a hard nut to crack. In the Kia the feedback was a little on the sporatic side.
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby Shadow » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:18 pm

The author of that article must have been high when he wrote it. First, automatic rev-matching is far from a trend. As far as I know, there are currently only three vehicles on earth capable of an auto rev-match. Secondly, auto rev-match isn't going to save the manuals. I think it is safe to say that most people who already prefer to drive stick will not care very much about auto rev-matching. And people who don't drive stick most definitely won't see auto rev-matching as a reason that they should learn to drive stick, much less buy a stick shift car. Silly article.
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby six » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:49 pm

There are only a few ways to make people switch to [traditional] manuals who haven't already.

- Make manuals half the price of their automatic counterparts.
- Outlaw automatics.
- Invent some marketing scheme that depicts driving automatics as something that is, VEERRYY, uncool. Spew lies like "Driving automatics gives you cancer," or "Driving automatics zaps your braincells," or "Driving manuals makes you look like a god to anything that breathes."
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby Rope-Pusher » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:01 pm

six wrote:- Invent some marketing scheme that depicts driving automatics as something that is, VEERRYY, uncool.

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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby AHTOXA » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:54 pm

DKaz wrote:Lol I had a manual choke in my 85 and 86 Civic wagons, good times.

I always wondered if a CVT can be made to act like a manual transmission complete with clutch pedal and virtual gears, but it could all be automated if the driver didn't feel like shifting?



My '86 Civic had a choke as well. When I got the car, no one knew how to operate the choke or the clutch pedal in it. That was fun figuring it out on my own.
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby Shadow » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:20 pm

six wrote:There are only a few ways to make people switch to [traditional] manuals who haven't already.

- Make manuals half the price of their automatic counterparts.
- Outlaw automatics.
- Invent some marketing scheme that depicts driving automatics as something that is, VEERRYY, uncool. Spew lies like "Driving automatics gives you cancer," or "Driving automatics zaps your braincells," or "Driving manuals makes you look like a god to anything that breathes."


LOL, that's great. I like #2....but #1 would be great also.
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby kamesama980 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:37 pm

Idiocracy is coming true. I haven't seen that much bass ackwards half logic in a while. The writer obviously isn't much of an enthusiast.

Rev-matching on downshifts isn't "new technology" it's a line of code in the drive-by wire controller and most people that don't drive stick, CAN'T. Since they can't even start from a stop driving stick, why would they give 2 craps about rev-matching the downshifts? Why don't more manufacturers do it? because most people that buy stick shift sports cars CAN downshift (or don't want their friends to find out they need the computer to help them downshift)

I put DSGs, SMT, and conventional (torque converter and planetaries) automatics in different categories...

Doesn't make the car faster? I beg to differ. Especially in econoboxes. There are a great many cars that when you place the auto and stick version side by side the stick will win with a halfway competent driver. Put the same final drive in and the stick will win by a lot usually.

The IS250/350 stickshift thing was more of a last ditch marketing thing to try to claim it was a sporty car instead of a luxury boat.

As for clutched CVTs with manual mode....there are manual mode CVTs sort of....like a tiptronic automatic where you can tell it when to shift within criteria, it'll let you pick a few pre-set gears that in the suzuki SX4 I drove were a piss-poor choice (super short "1", OK but inconsistent difference "2"-"5", and awkwardly tall "6"). plus you lose the benefits of it being a CVT. Sure you could replace the torque converter with a clutch (in principle anyway)...just don't forget to use it when you come to a stop.

I've heard of clutched (planetary) automatics in drag racing.... basically just replaces the torque converter. clutch in only for stops, gear changes knock your fillings out (granted it was a race-prepped auto). Not sure how they did the trans oil pump...unless they left that kind of like a normal auto where it's all concentric.
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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby InlinePaul » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:55 pm

theholycow wrote:For that matter, I've often considered similar schemes for traditional automatics where the "clutch pedal" controls the locking/unlocking of the torque converter, or the idea of adding a clutch pedal and shifter to a SMT/DSG/etc and just letting the computer do it when you don't feel like it.

Not sure it would work for me. A guy let me drive his paddle shifted car and I paddled for a couple times and then just put it in drive. Paddling an automatic seems pointless and it does not have the feel of the real thing. Now I would like much better a full manual valve body automatic, but you gotta have an H pattern, not this paddle monkey business. I want to know what gear it's in by the lever position.

How about a full manual valve body automatic, mated to an H pattern shifter and dump the slush spinner for a real live clutch so you can still launch the right way.

six wrote:There are only a few ways to make people switch to [traditional] manuals who haven't already.

- Make manuals half the price of their automatic counterparts.
- Outlaw automatics.
- Invent some marketing scheme that depicts driving automatics as something that is, VEERRYY, uncool. Spew lies like "Driving automatics gives you cancer," or "Driving automatics zaps your braincells," or "Driving manuals makes you look like a god to anything that breathes."


Or do like in some European countries that give you a restricted license if you road test for your license on an automatic.

If I were filthy rich I would like to give people incentives to buy and keep manual transmission vehicles. I would also like to buy the rights to the Fox Mustang and the Ranger and the S10 and a few other cars and start producing them in manual transmission only. My dream auto company will NEVER build or supply an automatic transmission vehicle.
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...

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Re: New technology will save the classic manual transmission

Postby theholycow » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:08 pm

InlinePaul wrote:
theholycow wrote:For that matter, I've often considered similar schemes for traditional automatics where the "clutch pedal" controls the locking/unlocking of the torque converter, or the idea of adding a clutch pedal and shifter to a SMT/DSG/etc and just letting the computer do it when you don't feel like it.

Not sure it would work for me. A guy let me drive his paddle shifted car and I paddled for a couple times and then just put it in drive. Paddling an automatic seems pointless and it does not have the feel of the real thing. Now I would like much better a full manual valve body automatic, but you gotta have an H pattern, not this paddle monkey business. I want to know what gear it's in by the lever position.

I agree. I wasn't even thinking of flappy paddles with that idea...I rather dislike those. The thought was from when I thought I was stuck with automatic, smaller things I can do to improve it; and for people who want the control (if not the feel) of manual while still having the automatic when they don't want it.

How about a full manual valve body automatic, mated to an H pattern shifter and dump the slush spinner for a real live clutch so you can still launch the right way.

If you're going to the effort of doing all that and the result is a car that can't take care of its own launching and shifting, why settle for your shifter being a numb hydraulic gate lever instead of a synchronizer lever transmitting feel to your hand...you've re-created the manual using the gearbox from an automatic, without the advantages of the automatic, having sacrificed some of what makes the manual great. The clutch is the hard part, if you've got that figured out then go ahead and put a manual gearbox behind it, that just bolts on easily.
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