karting and sliding just seem wrong.

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gizmo
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karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by gizmo »

i've been watching countless videos to see why karters, who make good times, need to slide the karts through turns. the only real purpose it seems to serve to me, is to reorient the kart, but at the expense of maximizing grip.

supposing kart tires and bias plys, then sliding is essentially braking/accelerating at a point close to maximum grip. i suppose maximum grip is sacrified, for close to maximum grip, because the the locked rear in the kart means sliding is the fastest way to radically redirect the kart. but this supposition falls if kart tires are radials (meaning the slip curve of a radial tire falls off rapidly beyond it's maximum... but in that same way slip curves can be built up much more quickly).

i'm just wondering if there's a better way to go about racing, to make up a few tenths, and maybe win this thing.

this guy's may or may not be the fastest runner out there, but he certainly exemplifies the types of the techniques used by the track "stars".

tomorrow, i will attempt to win a contest at this facility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCAbR8GFvss
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by IMBoring25 »

Dirt/mud have different properties, but I've always been of the understanding that the quickest way over a paved surface generally leaves the tires hooked up.
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by gizmo »

same here. agreed.

kart has no suspension. so it cannot transfer weight the way a car would. and the rear wheels are completely locked with no differential so they must turn at the same speed at all times. the chassis is built to flex so that the inside rear wheel will lift off the ground in the turn so that the kart won't fight the change of direction. also the kart only has rear b

i just believe that there's a better way to make all those things happen than sliding into the turn. trouble i've been having is visualising how. one thing i haven't really tried is braking through a corner. considering how tight some corners are, i think i might be able to threshold brake through the corner without sliding/skidding, and use that braking to get that inside tire up -- key will then be immediate transition from brake to gas when kart is poitned wherever desired.

too bad my helmet cam was a dud, i could've taped and watched to atleast analyze.
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by ra64t »

Maybe your overthinking it. It's too late (1AM) to try to explain the physics behind karting. and honestly, I don't understand all of it either, but really, you don't have to to be fast.

I am convinced you do have to slide to be fast in a any kart. Particularly the slicker the surface, the more sliding is acceptable.

What I've figured out, if you watch the fastest guys, they must be doing something right. Sometimes I was too stubborn I thought my way was better. I was 2 tenths slower then the fastest guy, but somehow I thought in x regard I was doing something BETTER then the fast guy. Ends up, as I slowly figure out how to close the final 2 tenths to the fastest guy, I drive more and more like him.

No sliding = slow. Too much sliding = slow. In between there is a sweat spot, where you can carry more speed then no sliding and not loose momentum by sliding too much.

And although karts don't have suspensions, weight transfer matters. Particularly your body weight, since it consists of likely close to 50% of the total kart/driver weight in an indoor kart. If the karts are a handful, sit with the seat further back; this might be more suitable to your style of driving too. And since the seat is probably way too big, lean to the outside of the turns to help get that inside rear up.

I suggest you do slide. And watch(and listen) to what the fast guys do. If this wasn't 5+ hours from me, I would join you. Good luck.

Sorry of the post is poorly organized. I wrote it fast.
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by mad_finn »

someone once told me that in any case 5-10% slip is makes you faster that 100% grip this goest to carting and driving on most usual surfaces, (exept setting off on snow unless you have spiked tires)
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by gizmo »

well this event, "the chance to race, win, and drive your dream car for a weekend" has me analyzing my driving on the particular tracks i've been racing. i've been on the track with the fast guys, not both of them, but a combination of the two, and they do not always use all of the track. it is in these cases, i hope, i can find a way to use the entire track, without sliding, to get the angle into the turn but with a higher rate of speed and better overall traction. time shall soon tell.

in the end, i'm competing against establish racers, people who race in the national solo pro SCCA circuit and place, and they have an unlimited $4,500.00 yearly membership to this establishment, and i've only raced there a handful of times. so they probably will be ushered into the most well kempt karts, etc. etc. etc.

but i think there's a better way than sliding, i do. i see sliding as the only way these guys can quickly rotate the kart without bind. but i'm thinking of staying wider, on the throttle as i initiate the turn, to keep the front tires loaded in the turn, then using the brakes to keep the front tires loaded and hopefully force enough weight transfer forward that inside the wheel lifts, but all this done without "sliding", with grip, and when i'm in that 3 wheel rotating state, i hope i can power out of of it, and by unwinding the steering wheel, set the fourth wheel down.

take note of the corkscrew turn, it's the only real turn that slows me up and requires sliding (other than the hairpain). they stay way toward the inside. i propose running harder down the outside, and witht he right combination of gas and brake, a later turn, being able to exit at the same angle with a higher rate of speed.
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by gizmo »

watch 2:47, that is a slide that could've been faster. i know it.

now again, he's probably not running hte fastest lap times, but he seems to be moving well (from what i can gather based on my experience there and all youtube has to offer in comparison to that).

i think if he had feathered the throttle as he initiated the turn, throttled into it to load the front tires and simultaneously brake to keep the front loaded, lifting the inside, he could rotate through that turn patially while braking and partially while feathering the gas, maintain a higher rate of speed. it would requite tremendous dexterity, but i just think it's faster, i hope it's faster -- than stomp the brake, go full counter lock, and hold the throttle open till she responds.


but that's just me.
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by 07_Mustang V6 »

Karting seems so awesome. That's pretty tight that you're up there with these guys. He was going quite fast for that small strip and the turns there. Definitely something to look into as a future hobby. How did you get started?
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by gizmo »

trouble is, since we're forced to share the track, yet till it's about one lap time, the line i'd take someone would probably breach for the spot through the turn, and they would kill my exit. i think that's why everyone runs so close through that turn and slides, so that there's no spot open for advancement.
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by gizmo »

this is an externel video of the best drivers there on that same track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBlgTqFYkBc
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by 07_Mustang V6 »

It seems quite hard to pass somebody since it's so tight. Looks like it takes a lot of skill and practice but looks immensely fun at the same time. nice video
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by 07_Mustang V6 »

Gotta love the comment "wow keep it clean guys! i've never seen so much contact idk how you got away with it! i guess i wasn't working that day" haha
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by gizmo »

the track is very wide in many places. almost everywhere. many turns are connected, meaning each turn is not connected to a straight, and a straight to a turn, so carrying maximum speed through each of three adjecent turns is pointless. unfortunately, to carry the most speed out of the last of those three turns (you do that to get the most speed down the straight), you often leave openings for passing during the first two of those three, and if you get passed, they cut your exit line off and the goal became counterproductive/moot.

karting is easy to get into, especially if you have a place like this fairly close by (I drive over an hour to get there). a lot of professional drivers roots began with karting -- michael schumacher still karts!

just make sure wherever you go, they have real racing karts, and not those circus karts. real karts corner around 1.3Gs and top out around 30-50 depending on the track.


ra64t and i raced two TAG karts with a top speed of 100mph. 32hp. tons of fun. too bad we did not receive what we had paid for... would have loved to have a gone again. i'm looking into other places that actually honor their word. hard to find high speed karts of that caliber.
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by ra64t »

2:47 doesn't look like much of a slide to me. Looks like he was being cautious of the guy behind sticking his nose in. The other laps he is not sliding there at all.

The main places he is sliding is that hairpin (around 2:50) and the fast ess/chicane (around 3:06), his technique here looks reasonable to me.

Certainly it's good to try different technique and find what's best suitable for you, but if your technique isn't really working you you might want to try something else.

One think I don't know if you are considering is the potential grip difference around the middle vs. the far outside edge, which could be why those guys aren't using that section of track. With the normal indoor tire compounds and the slick(shiny) surfaces, off line is usually dusty and very slick. If they have unlimited membership and have turned thousands of laps, and know what they are doing, you'd think they'd have figured out where the grip on the track is.
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Re: karting and sliding just seem wrong.

Post by ra64t »

I agree - this type of karting is really easy to get into if you can find a rental place near you (check out indoorkartingnews.com) . You just show up and they have the karts plus all the safety gear you need. It's typically only 10-20 bucks for a 8-10 minute session.

If you want to step up to a higher performance racing kart though, it's much difficult. Not only the upfront costs of buying a kart and equipment, but transport, storage, prep, etc. Much more time and money. There are much less guys that will rent a kart like TAG, and it will come at a price too.
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