Tired of Junk Clutch Hydraulics

Synchros shot? Weird noises while shifting? Not sure what needs to be replaced?
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Re: Tired of Junk Clutch Hydraulics

Postby Rope-Pusher » Wed May 10, 2017 9:55 pm

BOOM-Shackelacka?
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InlinePaul
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Re: Tired of Junk Clutch Hydraulics

Postby InlinePaul » Wed May 10, 2017 10:56 pm

Rope-Pusher wrote:BOOM-Shackelacka?

Yep, that is what it would become if I drive it any more. That is why I am taking public transportation tomorrow.
And I hate public transportation almost as much as I hate automatic transmissions,
and somewhat more than I hate cauliflower. Image
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...

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Re: Tired of Junk Clutch Hydraulics

Postby InlinePaul » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:09 am

So I had Mike at the other shop (not where the work was done) bleed it again. He said there are aluminum particles/shavings in the master cylinder. You can see a lot of tiny bright metallic things in the bottom of the reservoir. He has seen this before, said that the manufacturing debris is not properly cleaned out (attributes to made in Mexico and lack of quality control). Mike said he has seen this before. It happens with genuine parts and more with aftermarket parts. He says that if he installs clutch hydaulics he drains the parts, flushes them, then refills and bleeds them, even though they come pre bled and ready to run from the manufacturer. So, presumably the whole system is polluted with these metal scraps, and so I am in for another complete R&R. The parts are under a 1-year warranty (lot of good a warranty is when the parts are crap), but it will be extra for the flush and bleed, and frankly, the shop that did the original work is not that competent with this stuff, so I would rather have Mike do it. Maybe I should abandon Genuine Ford parts and go with the LUK parts. That company is supposed to be excellent. More costly not getting warranty replacement parts, but better to get it done right.
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...

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Re: Tired of Junk Clutch Hydraulics

Postby Rope-Pusher » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:48 am

InlinePaul wrote:So I had Mike at the other shop (not where the work was done) bleed it again. He said there are aluminum particles/shavings in the master cylinder. You can see a lot of tiny bright metallic things in the bottom of the reservoir. He has seen this before, said that the manufacturing debris is not properly cleaned out (attributes to made in Mexico and lack of quality control). Mike said he has seen this before. It happens with genuine parts and more with aftermarket parts. He says that if he installs clutch hydaulics he drains the parts, flushes them, then refills and bleeds them, even though they come pre bled and ready to run from the manufacturer. So, presumably the whole system is polluted with these metal scraps, and so I am in for another complete R&R. The parts are under a 1-year warranty (lot of good a warranty is when the parts are crap), but it will be extra for the flush and bleed, and frankly, the shop that did the original work is not that competent with this stuff, so I would rather have Mike do it. Maybe I should abandon Genuine Ford parts and go with the LUK parts. That company is supposed to be excellent. More costly not getting warranty replacement parts, but better to get it done right.

Wow, I will say that we don't run into debris inside the plastic hydraulic systems. Also, once they tweak-in the injection molding processes the parts are dimensionally very precise.
So, your system uses its own reservoir (doesn't share with the brake reservoir)? It still seems strange to me that heavy stuph like metallic chips would migrate upstream to the reservoir. Then again, I've heard of salmon, so even the difficult journey can sometimes be the usual trip.
That being said, I would suspect that the debris in your system has mebbe gouged the master and slave cylinder walls and prolly scored the piston seals as well, so R&R sounds like the right action to be taking.
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Re: Tired of Junk Clutch Hydraulics

Postby InlinePaul » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:26 am

Rope-Pusher wrote:Wow, I will say that we don't run into debris inside the plastic hydraulic systems. Also, once they tweak-in the injection molding processes the parts are dimensionally very precise.
So, your system uses its own reservoir (doesn't share with the brake reservoir)? It still seems strange to me that heavy stuph like metallic chips would migrate upstream to the reservoir. Then again, I've heard of salmon, so even the difficult journey can sometimes be the usual trip.
That being said, I would suspect that the debris in your system has mebbe gouged the master and slave cylinder walls and prolly scored the piston seals as well, so R&R sounds like the right action to be taking.


Mike said it has an aluminium cylinder inside the plastic.

Today I called the LUK tech service line about the metal shavings and was told to see if there is any misalignment of the pedal assembly that would make the piston go off center and cause the piston to score the cylinder. That situation already was mentioned in this tread and the shop that originally did the work said the pedal assembly is fine, but I will ask Mike if he checked that.

The other odd thing is I used a screwdriver to pull a larger piece of this metallic stuff (still less than 1/2 mm long) up the reservoir to above the fluid. It was sticking to the reservoir wall, so I tried to extract it with my finger by wiping it off the inside of the reservoir and it seemed to smear, but maybe it embedded. Hard to say, it is so small and my eyes are not what they used to be (fixed focus plastic lenses in both eyes now).

Anyway, something is definitely amiss. And to change just one part will be its doom as the metallic bits are through the whole system.
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...

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Re: Tired of Junk Clutch Hydraulics

Postby Rope-Pusher » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:35 am

I'd say that it is really difficult to eyeball evaluate if the pedal connector to the master cylinder rod is skewed. On a bench it would be one thing, but down under the instrument panel it is another - you need some sort of jig made up that fits sorta tight to the pin / ballstud on the pedal and has a rod / pointer that aims toward the master cylinder to see if it is off-center left-to-right in the vehicle. Because the pedal pin travels in an arc (with Noah and all the animals), there will always be skewing in the vertical plane. A good pedal design will minimize this - typically somewhere near the midpoint or maybe a little closer to the floor the rod should be pointed perfectly toward the master cylinder. We call this "Splitting the arc" and it limits how far off-center the rod will be when the pedal is full-up or full-down.

You know, this is WAY BEYOND what most technicians get into, right?
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Re: Tired of Junk Clutch Hydraulics

Postby InlinePaul » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:05 pm

I would think it has to be quite a bit off to cause scoring of the cylinder walls. Isn't the clearance pretty tight? So how much can it tilt? Pistons in cars have the thrust at the wrist pin coming from different angles and it does not do this, but slightly over the long, long haul. Of course, the cylinder walls get oiled, but the brake fluid must have some lubricity to it also. I just can't imagine it is off that much.
Stick shiftin since '77
theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...

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Re: Tired of Junk Clutch Hydraulics

Postby Rope-Pusher » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:10 pm

InlinePaul wrote:I would think it has to be quite a bit off to cause scoring of the cylinder walls. Isn't the clearance pretty tight? So how much can it tilt? Pistons in cars have the thrust at the wrist pin coming from different angles and it does not do this, but slightly over the long, long haul. Of course, the cylinder walls get oiled, but the brake fluid must have some lubricity to it also. I just can't imagine it is off that much.

It may be that the piston is not very long and cocks easily...then it would depend on how they couple the rod to the piston. If they allow a lot of swivel it might be better than if it could only swivel a small amount and then started to cock the piston in the bore.

Too bad hydraulic clutch release systems were not plug-n-play. Then you could update it with the latest parts from some vehicle that has a more durable system. It really shudda / cudda been this way - it's not a selling point if they design their own HCRS or buy an off-the-shelf system from a supplier. Kinda like transmissions - if it all works good, do you care who designed it? This is what Sergio Marcioni was getting at when he suggested that there should be an industry-wide 2.0L, and industry-wide 1.6L, and industry-wide 3.0 V-6.....nobody really cares who designed the engine or who built it, just that it performs well and is durable. There is a lot of money tied up in the automobile industry with each company designing, building, testing, etc. their own versions of engines that could be jointly designed, validated, and produced.
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