Wheel alignment questions

Synchros shot? Weird noises while shifting? Not sure what needs to be replaced?
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bk7794
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Wheel alignment questions

Post by bk7794 »

This always baffled me, why do the front tires get knocked out of alignment? Espeically "toe", Isn't the tie rod end, the part that controls toe, locked with a nut? What happens when I hit a pot hole and the tires get knocked out of alignment, what shifted?

Thanks for your responses!
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by watkins »

Shit shifts. Bushings wear.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by bk7794 »

watkins wrote:Shit shifts. Bushings wear.
so what happens when I get an alignment?
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by AHTOXA »

It compensates for worn parts, bent parts, etc.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by Shadow »

bk7794 wrote:
watkins wrote:Shit shifts. Bushings wear.
so what happens when I get an alignment?

Depends upon your vehicle. For example, my 4Runner has a live rear axle. Nothing on the back wheels is adjustable. So it gets a thrust angle alignment (also known as a two wheel alignment) that basically adjusts the front wheels to the thrust angle of the rear wheels.

But most cars do get a four wheel alignment. After getting the car on the alignment rack, the steering wheel will be centered and the car will be properly leveled (if necessary). The tire pressure will be checked and adjusted. The alignment tech will then attach an electronic "head" to each wheel. The heads will be calibrated. They use lasers to precisely measure the angles of each wheel. This info is sent to the computer, which has the alignment specs for each specific make/model. The tech will see a graphic representation of measurements for each wheel. It also provides a small range. The tech can then make adjustments to the toe, caster, camber of each wheel, bringing them back into specs if they are out. More often than not, toe is the only adjustment needed. Sometimes camber too, but not nearly as much as toe. And a caster adjustment is rarely needed.

I used to do a lot of alignments when I worked for Toyota. I can't even tell you how many times I put a car on the alignment rack and the alignment was fine....no adjustments needed. My advice to people on alignments is simple--if you don't see any abnormal tire wear and the car doesn't pull to one side, then your alignment is most like fine. Don't waste your money just to have it checked for no reason. If your alignment is out, you will eventually see abnormal tire wear and/or pulling to one side.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by AHTOXA »

Not directed at you, Shadow, but I've often been disappointed in the techs doing the alignments. Many seem to think that as long as each wheel is in the specified range, that the alignment is good. That's not so, because you have to look at the bigger picture as well, toe difference from left to right, total toe, etc.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by bk7794 »

Shadow wrote:
bk7794 wrote:
watkins wrote:Shit shifts. Bushings wear.
so what happens when I get an alignment?

Depends upon your vehicle. For example, my 4Runner has a live rear axle. Nothing on the back wheels is adjustable. So it gets a thrust angle alignment (also known as a two wheel alignment) that basically adjusts the front wheels to the thrust angle of the rear wheels.

But most cars do get a four wheel alignment. After getting the car on the alignment rack, the steering wheel will be centered and the car will be properly leveled (if necessary). The tire pressure will be checked and adjusted. The alignment tech will then attach an electronic "head" to each wheel. The heads will be calibrated. They use lasers to precisely measure the angles of each wheel. This info is sent to the computer, which has the alignment specs for each specific make/model. The tech will see a graphic representation of measurements for each wheel. It also provides a small range. The tech can then make adjustments to the toe, caster, camber of each wheel, bringing them back into specs if they are out. More often than not, toe is the only adjustment needed. Sometimes camber too, but not nearly as much as toe. And a caster adjustment is rarely needed.

I used to do a lot of alignments when I worked for Toyota. I can't even tell you how many times I put a car on the alignment rack and the alignment was fine....no adjustments needed. My advice to people on alignments is simple--if you don't see any abnormal tire wear and the car doesn't pull to one side, then your alignment is most like fine. Don't waste your money just to have it checked for no reason. If your alignment is out, you will eventually see abnormal tire wear and/or pulling to one side.
So basically what gets knocked? The Tie-rod end?

Maybe you could help me with the situation I have been having, I have been getting these weird sensations while driving, almost like a shudder. Buts its not like a misfire because if it was a misfire then I would really feel it...especially in 2nd gear. It usually happens at a certain speed, or under acceleration. I was thinking it had to do with the alignment because I hit a wicked bump due to a truck being parked infront of the "bump" sign. The car has small rims anyways, plus the speed it does it at (61mph) I used to get wheel vibrations at...just that speed. Other then that I don't get too much vibration.

Can you help? I read in the manual excessive toe out could cause that. If I put the wheel straight I can see that the toe is pretty far out..I mean visibly noticeable. But my tires look alright, It has been like this for 20k...haha. All of my treads measure the same.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by AHTOXA »

Unless you really broke something, you'd never be able to judge toe measurements visually. If you say that it's been like this for 20k miles, then you're fine if you arenot getting weird tire wear.

Do you have any steering pull?

For shudder and vibes, check the balance of the tires.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by Shadow »

AHTOXA wrote:Not directed at you, Shadow, but I've often been disappointed in the techs doing the alignments. Many seem to think that as long as each wheel is in the specified range, that the alignment is good. That's not so, because you have to look at the bigger picture as well, toe difference from left to right, total toe, etc.
Most of the newer machines are almost foolproof. What I mean is that they print out the before and after specs in graphic form for the vehicle owner to keep. It's either in spec or out, that much is true. And it's not always easy to get it exactly where you want it if you're making multiple adjustments because one adjustment can affect another adjustment. Another thing to consider is that the heads are very easily knocked out of calibration if they are dropped. And it's really easy to drop them because of the way that they attach to the wheels. I'd guess that maybe 80% of poor wheel alignments are due more to dropped heads than bad techs.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

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bk7794 wrote: So basically what gets knocked? The Tie-rod end?

Maybe you could help me with the situation I have been having, I have been getting these weird sensations while driving, almost like a shudder. Buts its not like a misfire because if it was a misfire then I would really feel it...especially in 2nd gear. It usually happens at a certain speed, or under acceleration. I was thinking it had to do with the alignment because I hit a wicked bump due to a truck being parked infront of the "bump" sign. The car has small rims anyways, plus the speed it does it at (61mph) I used to get wheel vibrations at...just that speed. Other then that I don't get too much vibration.

Can you help? I read in the manual excessive toe out could cause that. If I put the wheel straight I can see that the toe is pretty far out..I mean visibly noticeable. But my tires look alright, It has been like this for 20k...haha. All of my treads measure the same.
If you can actually SEE that the toe is out with your eyes, then it must be REALLY out. I'd check the entire front suspension to see if anything is bent. Actually, the alignment tech will do that before he does the inspection because you can't properly align a car that has a bent suspension component. Did you check to see if the wheel got bent when you hit that bump?
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by AHTOXA »

Shadow wrote:
AHTOXA wrote:Not directed at you, Shadow, but I've often been disappointed in the techs doing the alignments. Many seem to think that as long as each wheel is in the specified range, that the alignment is good. That's not so, because you have to look at the bigger picture as well, toe difference from left to right, total toe, etc.
Most of the newer machines are almost foolproof. What I mean is that they print out the before and after specs in graphic form for the vehicle owner to keep. It's either in spec or out, that much is true. And it's not always easy to get it exactly where you want it if you're making multiple adjustments because one adjustment can affect another adjustment. Another thing to consider is that the heads are very easily knocked out of calibration if they are dropped. And it's really easy to drop them because of the way that they attach to the wheels. I'd guess that maybe 80% of poor wheel alignments are due more to dropped heads than bad techs.
I'm talking about one wheel being smack in the middle of the range, while the other is at the far negative side of the spectrum.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by watkins »

I do alignments all the time. They really are fool-proof. Depending on what can be adjusted and the desired alignment type (we usually just do a Toe-and-go), its as easy as rear caster, camber, and toe followed by front caster, camber, and toe. The machine tells you the specs, let's you know if the measurement is within range, shows the actual measurement, and in most cases even has written or image explanations of how to adjust the specific behicle's suspention settings.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by Shadow »

AHTOXA wrote:
I'm talking about one wheel being smack in the middle of the range, while the other is at the far negative side of the spectrum.
Well, the ranges are pretty tight on most cars. So it should still be fine as long as both are within specs. It might be ideal to try and get both of them dead center, but I'd guess most guys just try to get them within the acceptable range.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by bk7794 »

I do get steering pull, fairly bad steering pull...the pull has been happening for 20k atleast. The rim is not noticeably bent, which means that I really can't see anything wrong with it. I am replacing the tie-rod end due to it having play in it...

The shudder only happens under heavy acceleration, or going up a hill...whether it be on the highway or on a backroad...sometimes it does it and sometimes I don't get it. Its very intermittent.
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Re: Wheel alignment questions

Post by Shadow »

bk7794 wrote:I do get steering pull, fairly bad steering pull...the pull has been happening for 20k atleast. The rim is not noticeably bent, which means that I really can't see anything wrong with it. I am replacing the tie-rod end due to it having play in it...

The shudder only happens under heavy acceleration, or going up a hill...whether it be on the highway or on a backroad...sometimes it does it and sometimes I don't get it. Its very intermittent.
Does the steering pull happen constantly? Only during braking? These are the kinds of things a tech will need to know to properly diagnose the problem. But definitely take a look at the suspension yourself if you can to see if anything looks obviously bent or damaged.
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