First gear problem

Synchros shot? Weird noises while shifting? Not sure what needs to be replaced?
Roger
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First gear problem

Post by Roger »

Hi I've recently noticed that in my 1997 Toyota Celica SX (ST204) I am hitting a wall (which I assume is the syncro) as I enter first gear about 90% of the time, I can push through this wall with some force but it feels like it's quite excessive. It has a 5S-FE engine (the crappy camry one :() with only 94,000km. I've owned the car for about 4 months and I've gotten the occasional issue with not getting into first gear where I would just have to double clutch it or push it into 2nd gear then first.

But within the past 2weeks it got really bad and I get it everyday a majority of the time. The car is not moving and I can replicate this every time, I'm absolutely certain the clutch pedal is fully depressed.

I've tried double clutching it into first (ie once I feel resistance, put it back in neutral, engage clutch, disengage push to first) and it doesn't help at all. Today I tried pushing it against the wall on first gear, revving it to 1500, and I tried to push harder, and it only goes in once the RPM drops to 800rpm, but again it is done with considerable force (not a lot but a lot more than should be necessary).

However when I approach a stop sign, I can put it into 1st gear smoothly with zero resistance the moment I come to a complete stop.

I also notice this wall in 3rd gear although it is a lot easier to push through compared to 1st gear when the car is stationary. Once I push through it in 3rd gear, I can put it into 1st butter smooth.

I just changed the MTF with Nulon 75W-90 semi-synthetic oil a week ago (its an Aussie brand), I've heard a lot of good experiences with Pennzoil syncromesh but couldn't find any where I live. However I'm absolutely certain I overfilled by about 400ml as I filled it up with the car jacked up, the car takes 2.6L and most people have said that the car will take 3L once it's been jacked up.

I noticed this wall consistently right after I got my wheels and tyres changed at a wheel/tyre place, but the only thing they did was drive it onto a car hoist, change the wheels, put on new tyres, and drive it back out. I have no idea how this could lead to messed up syncros. Prior to this, first gear was fine, I only had this issue once or twice every few days.

Any ideas on something that could be wrong?

EDIT: Sorry I just noticed there's a parts and problems section, could a mod please move it there? Thanks!
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Re: First gear problem

Post by AHTOXA »

Any grinding in 1st or 3rd?

Kind of sounded like gear oil changed happened about the time when the issue became worse, right? If so, it may be that. I ran redline gear oil in an older Jeep with a trans which had 225k miles. Made shifting better.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by theholycow »

Are you sure it takes gear oil, not engine oil or ATF?

If you use 2nd gear's synchro to stop the clutch does it shift more easily into 1st?

It could be something with the clutch release system. Air in the hydraulic fluid, for example. It could be that the clutch isn't sliding freely on the input shaft.

If Rope-Pusher posts, he'll post the simple, easy, cheap thing that's the most likely problem, which I have surely forgotten. :)
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Re: First gear problem

Post by Roger »

I used to get grinding in 3rd gear when it was cold, but changing the oil fixed that.

The timelime goes something like this:
- 3 Weeks ago: I get trouble getting into first gear once or twice every few days or so. Every morning I would get a grind for the first time I went into 3rd, once the car was warmed up it was all good.
-2 Weeks ago: Changed wheels and tyres, my first time going to a stoplight I try to get back into first gear, it doesn't go in, put it back in neutral, try again, doesn't go in so I force it in. After this period I almost always get trouble getting in first gear.
-1 Week ago: Changed MTF to Nulon GL5 75W-90 (overfilled a bit). The grind in 3rd gear was gone. 1st gear was still the same.

The owner's manual specifies for 75W-90 oil in either GL4 or GL5, but after a bit of google-fu a lot of people say that GL5 oil is bad for the syncros? I did a search for Pennzoil syncromesh but I'm not sure if it'll work for my car, it doesn't say what viscosity and weight it is. I'll look into Redline MT-90 75W-90 GL4.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by Roger »

theholycow wrote:Are you sure it takes gear oil, not engine oil or ATF?

If you use 2nd gear's synchro to stop the clutch does it shift more easily into 1st?

It could be something with the clutch release system. Air in the hydraulic fluid, for example. It could be that the clutch isn't sliding freely on the input shaft.

If Rope-Pusher posts, he'll post the simple, easy, cheap thing that's the most likely problem, which I have surely forgotten. :)
Yesterday I tried using the other gear's syncros and this is what happened:
- Push into 2nd gear, then first, I get the wall.
- Push into 4th gear, then first, I get the wall.
- Push into 3rd gear or 5th gear, then into first and it goes in butter smooth. When I put it into 3rd or 5th gear I feel like a mini wall(which is much easier to push through) which I assume is the syncros.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by theholycow »

Roger wrote:Yesterday I tried using the other gear's syncros and this is what happened:
- Push into 2nd gear, then first, I get the wall.
- Push into 4th gear, then first, I get the wall.
- Push into 3rd gear or 5th gear, then into first and it goes in butter smooth. When I put it into 3rd or 5th gear I feel like a mini wall(which is much easier to push through) which I assume is the syncros.
This makes it sound like your shift linkage/stops are out of adjustment or something is otherwise messed up with the shifter...consider that 1, 3, and 5 are all on one side of the shifter while 2 and 4 are on the other side, and the behavior correlates by side.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by AHTOXA »

theholycow wrote:
Roger wrote:Yesterday I tried using the other gear's syncros and this is what happened:
- Push into 2nd gear, then first, I get the wall.
- Push into 4th gear, then first, I get the wall.
- Push into 3rd gear or 5th gear, then into first and it goes in butter smooth. When I put it into 3rd or 5th gear I feel like a mini wall(which is much easier to push through) which I assume is the syncros.
This makes it sound like your shift linkage/stops are out of adjustment or something is otherwise messed up with the shifter...consider that 1, 3, and 5 are all on one side of the shifter while 2 and 4 are on the other side, and the behavior correlates by side.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by Roger »

Would a problem with the shift linkage still persist even when the car is off? Because with the engine off I can shift into every gear smoothly, no wall, just butter smoothness.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by Roger »

On the drive to work today, I noticed when I was on a slight incline, I could shift into first gear with very minimal resistance. I'm thinking that overfilling my MTF might have made it worse but I didn't realise it straight away. I'll try drain the excess fluid this saturday by putting a tube on the fill bolt, lowering the car, then letting the excess fluid come out. I'll report back on the results.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by theholycow »

Roger wrote:Would a problem with the shift linkage still persist even when the car is off? Because with the engine off I can shift into every gear smoothly, no wall, just butter smoothness.
I can imagine it differing with the car off, but that is indeed another factor to consider.

Your plan of un-overfilling is a good next step.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by potownrob »

Roger wrote: The owner's manual specifies for 75W-90 oil in either GL4 or GL5, but after a bit of google-fu a lot of people say that GL5 oil is bad for the syncros? I did a search for Pennzoil syncromesh but I'm not sure if it'll work for my car, it doesn't say what viscosity and weight it is. I'll look into Redline MT-90 75W-90 GL4.
this was the case with my 98 maxima. people and even shops were putting gl5 lube in the trannies and trying to say it's better than gl4 since it's newer. problem is it's only better in trannies that gl5 is designed for, and the gl5 eats the synchros in trannies that call for gl4. you definitely want to find out which oils work well in your tranny before putting just anything 75w90 in there.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by Roger »

potownrob wrote:
Roger wrote: The owner's manual specifies for 75W-90 oil in either GL4 or GL5, but after a bit of google-fu a lot of people say that GL5 oil is bad for the syncros? I did a search for Pennzoil syncromesh but I'm not sure if it'll work for my car, it doesn't say what viscosity and weight it is. I'll look into Redline MT-90 75W-90 GL4.
this was the case with my 98 maxima. people and even shops were putting gl5 lube in the trannies and trying to say it's better than gl4 since it's newer. problem is it's only better in trannies that gl5 is designed for, and the gl5 eats the synchros in trannies that call for gl4. you definitely want to find out which oils work well in your tranny before putting just anything 75w90 in there.
I just checked out my local autobarn and they had 4L for Redline MT90 for $169, I was like wtf?

I found it online for around $25/L, I found it even cheaper from the US but the shipping costs is something like $40.

How long does it take for it to eat up the syncros? My manual says the tranny accepts both GL4 and GL5, but I'd rather not risk it. Ordering it online might take upto a week or two.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by potownrob »

Roger wrote: I just checked out my local autobarn and they had 4L for Redline MT90 for $169, I was like wtf?

I found it online for around $25/L, I found it even cheaper from the US but the shipping costs is something like $40.

How long does it take for it to eat up the syncros? My manual says the tranny accepts both GL4 and GL5, but I'd rather not risk it. Ordering it online might take upto a week or two.
Anything over like 25 USD/quart sounds too high even for redline. Might want to look into other brands if you can't find redline cheaper. I used to use the AMSOIL 75w90 GL4 (i'll try to look up which one was the GL4) and it used to be around 10 bucks a quart but now i think they sell it for at least 16 USD. If your manual says the tranny will take either GL4 or GL5, you should be okay with either. The GL5 has extra additives for certain (mostly newer) trannies. If it says either is good, then it doesn't need the GL5 additives but they shouldn't harm it. Might want to check on Celica/Toyota forums to see what people are using.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by Roger »

I just finished draining the excess oil, it drained out about a cup of oil after I lowered the car.

When I first started the car, first gear's wall was still there. After the car warmed up a bit and engine idle dropped down to 800rpm it was a lot smoother. I could still feel a wall there but it was soo much easier to push through. :D

I'll see how well the gear box will work for a few weeks then decide if I should change the oil again. If a better oil will help with the gearbox then I don't mind paying a bit extra, everything here in Australia is overpriced as hell anyway. To get the Australian prices, get the MSRP in the US and double it, that's the Australian price.

I've checked on 6GC forum (6th gen celicas) and most people either recommend Pennzoil Syncromesh or Redline MT90.
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Re: First gear problem

Post by theholycow »

Roger wrote:When I first started the car, first gear's wall was still there. After the car warmed up a bit and engine idle dropped down to 800rpm it was a lot smoother. I could still feel a wall there but it was soo much easier to push through. :D
The idle speed difference points back to clutch not fully disengaging. Have you bled the hydraulic linkage and checked the line all the way for bulges? Have you checked that the slave cylinder is working right? Have you checked if the fork is aligned properly? Is it possible to inspect the input shaft for adequate grease and lack of surface rust?
I'll see how well the gear box will work for a few weeks then decide if I should change the oil again. If a better oil will help with the gearbox then I don't mind paying a bit extra, everything here in Australia is overpriced as hell anyway. To get the Australian prices, get the MSRP in the US and double it, that's the Australian price.
You drive a Toyota, not a Lamborghini. You shouldn't need oil costing that much and it certainly shouldn't cause the symptom you described. I'd hate to see you blow that much money and not solve the problem.
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