shifting from first to second weird

Synchros shot? Weird noises while shifting? Not sure what needs to be replaced?
jhg1232
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shifting from first to second weird

Postby jhg1232 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:16 pm

So what im going to explain is kind of long and maybe confusing to understand but bear with me.

when im shifting from first to second gear, when i push the shifter out of first it feels strange like a very short throw as if the shifter wanted to come out of gear and it just needed some
pressure from my hand to help it out.

so for example i start moving in first gear and go to shift into second, i pull the shifter out of first and the distance out of first feels unusually short and like it wanted to pop out.
shorter than if i were to go from 3rd to 4th or 5th to 6th. when im at a stand still with the car on and i go 1st to 2nd it feels normal.
also the shift from 1st to 2nd is extremely notchy.

now the strange thing is i can get all this to go away and feel completely smooth but only when i push the shifter to the left before i pull it out of first and
i keep pressure to the left while i shift it into second. no notchiness and feels nice and smooth.

when im at a stop and if i were to do this pulling the shifter straight down from 1st to 2nd without any pressure to the left, it feels normal.

i just hope its nothing with my synchros and maybe its just a shifter linkage or something minor?
thanks

2013 mazdaspeed 3 btw only 9k miles and i drive it carefully, never grinded a gear, never launched it or ride the clutch at stops etc.
2013 Mazdaspeed 3 (6speed)

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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby Rope-Pusher » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:29 am

jhg1232 wrote:So what im going to explain is kind of long and maybe confusing to understand but bear with me.

when im shifting from first to second gear, when i push the shifter out of first it feels strange like a very short throw as if the shifter wanted to come out of gear and it just needed some
pressure from my hand to help it out.

so for example i start moving in first gear and go to shift into second, i pull the shifter out of first and the distance out of first feels unusually short and like it wanted to pop out.
shorter than if i were to go from 3rd to 4th or 5th to 6th. when im at a stand still with the car on and i go 1st to 2nd it feels normal.
also the shift from 1st to 2nd is extremely notchy.

now the strange thing is i can get all this to go away and feel completely smooth but only when i push the shifter to the left before i pull it out of first and
i keep pressure to the left while i shift it into second. no notchiness and feels nice and smooth.

when im at a stop and if i were to do this pulling the shifter straight down from 1st to 2nd without any pressure to the left, it feels normal.

i just hope its nothing with my synchros and maybe its just a shifter linkage or something minor?
thanks

2013 mazdaspeed 3 btw only 9k miles and i drive it carefully, never grinded a gear, never launched it or ride the clutch at stops etc.

Has this changed all the sudden like, or has it always have been shifting like this?

The 1>2 shifts smoothing out when you side-load the knob to the left sounds like a misadjusted Select cable. I think your 1st/2nd shift plane is narrow and you are rubbing on the right side of it unless you side-load to the left. Prolly catching the corner of the gate between 2nd and 4th after you cross the Neutral plane.

As for the short shift out of 1st....what does it feel like going into 1st - short? Is there excessive fore/aft freeplay in 1st as compared with 3rd or 5th? Does it ever clash going into 1st when the vehicle is in motion?
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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby potownrob » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:23 am

sounds normal. i wouldn't sweat it. 8)
BUT DEM FAHGLEITZ!! :shock:

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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby jhg1232 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:35 am

Rope-Pusher wrote:
jhg1232 wrote:
The 1>2 shifts smoothing out when you side-load the knob to the left sounds like a misadjusted Select cable. I think your 1st/2nd shift plane is narrow and you are rubbing on the right side of it unless you side-load to the left. Prolly catching the corner of the gate between 2nd and 4th after you cross the Neutral plane.

As for the short shift out of 1st....what does it feel like going into 1st - short? Is there excessive fore/aft freeplay in 1st as compared with 3rd or 5th? Does it ever clash going into 1st when the vehicle is in motion?


when i shift into first gear the length of the throw feels normal just like when i go into any of the other 5 gears. but lets say im in traffic and start moving in first gear
and have to stop again, as i slow down and i shift into neutral , the length of the throw going to neutral feels shorter. it doesnt feel the same as if i were to leave any of the
other gears and go intro neutral.

this shorter feeling is the same as if i were shifting from 1st to 2nd as i accelerate.

also i never have any issue putting it into first gear when the cars moving (if its moving slow enough as my car wont let me go into first if im going too fast)
and also something i noticed is the oem shifter is not centered, its located slightly more to the left so when i go into first, when i move the shifter left i move it all the way to the left and push forward, and once i let go of the shifter after putting it in first, it will slightly move like a centimeter or maybe an inch over to the right.
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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby Rope-Pusher » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:10 am

jhg1232 wrote:
Rope-Pusher wrote:
jhg1232 wrote:
The 1>2 shifts smoothing out when you side-load the knob to the left sounds like a misadjusted Select cable. I think your 1st/2nd shift plane is narrow and you are rubbing on the right side of it unless you side-load to the left. Prolly catching the corner of the gate between 2nd and 4th after you cross the Neutral plane.

As for the short shift out of 1st....what does it feel like going into 1st - short? Is there excessive fore/aft freeplay in 1st as compared with 3rd or 5th? Does it ever clash going into 1st when the vehicle is in motion?


when i shift into first gear the length of the throw feels normal just like when i go into any of the other 5 gears. but lets say im in traffic and start moving in first gear
and have to stop again, as i slow down and i shift into neutral , the length of the throw going to neutral feels shorter. it doesnt feel the same as if i were to leave any of the
other gears and go intro neutral.

this shorter feeling is the same as if i were shifting from 1st to 2nd as i accelerate.

also i never have any issue putting it into first gear when the cars moving (if its moving slow enough as my car wont let me go into first if im going too fast)
and also something i noticed is the oem shifter is not centered, its located slightly more to the left so when i go into first, when i move the shifter left i move it all the way to the left and push forward, and once i let go of the shifter after putting it in first, it will slightly move like a centimeter or maybe an inch over to the right.


The shifter moving back over to the right after letting go in 1st gear is normal - prolly also for 2nd and also prolly moves to the left from 5th and 6th when you let go.

So, if the vehicle is off, you push in the clutch, shift into 1st gear, and then shift out of 1st gear, the point where you come out of 1st and reach the Neutral plane is shorter than coming out of any other gears to the Neutral plane? ...or is this effect noticable only when the vehicle is driven?
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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby jhg1232 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:49 pm

//
Last edited by jhg1232 on Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby jhg1232 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:43 am

jhg1232 wrote:
Rope-Pusher wrote:
jhg1232 wrote:


when i shift into first gear the length of the throw feels normal just like when i go into any of the other 5 gears. but lets say im in traffic and start moving in first gear
and have to stop again, as i slow down and i shift into neutral , the length of the throw going to neutral feels shorter. it doesnt feel the same as if i were to leave any of the
other gears and go intro neutral.

this shorter feeling is the same as if i were shifting from 1st to 2nd as i accelerate.

also i never have any issue putting it into first gear when the cars moving (if its moving slow enough as my car wont let me go into first if im going too fast)
and also something i noticed is the oem shifter is not centered, its located slightly more to the left so when i go into first, when i move the shifter left i move it all the way to the left and push forward, and once i let go of the shifter after putting it in first, it will slightly move like a centimeter or maybe an inch over to the right.


The shifter moving back over to the right after letting go in 1st gear is normal - prolly also for 2nd and also prolly moves to the left from 5th and 6th when you let go.

So, if the vehicle is off, you push in the clutch, shift into 1st gear, and then shift out of 1st gear, the point where you come out of 1st and reach the Neutral plane is shorter than coming out of any other gears to the Neutral plane? ...or is this effect noticable only when the vehicle is driven?


If it's off it all feels normal. Even if the cars on and I'm at a stop with the clutch in moving through the gears it feels normal. Only when I'm accelerating this happens.
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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby theholycow » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:40 am

jhg1232 wrote:If it's off it all feels normal. Even if the cars on and I'm at a stop with the clutch in moving through the gears it feels normal. Only when I'm accelerating this happens.

I wonder if a failed engine/transmission mount (possibly combined with a failed shifter cable housing mount) could allow the transmission to move around too much when accelerating and pull on the shifter cables. If you do a no-gas launch in first gear then, while idling in first, stomp the accelerator pedal to the floor for a couple seconds then dump the accelerator just as abruptly (therefore getting hard acceleration followed abruptly by hard engine braking) while watching your shift lever, does your shift lever jerk wildly? Anyone's would likely move a little, and just how much it ought to move might be tough to describe...
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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby Rope-Pusher » Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:39 pm

I would check the gearshift cable connections to the reaction bracket at the transmission end and to the body of the shifter (inside the vehicle, under the console, may be able to detach the shifter boot at the center console and look forward thru the boot hole).

Usually, when something differs while idling at a standstill, or with the engine off, it is because the shift load is reduced in these two situations. So consider what may happen at higher shift loads that doesn't tend to happen at lower shift loads. The cable conduit is fairly stiff and can react low shift loads even when not clipped in, but under high loads, it tends to back away from the connections (when the inner wires, the cable "core" is in Compression, the black outer housing, or "Conduit", is in Tension).
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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby jhg1232 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:15 pm

theholycow wrote:
jhg1232 wrote:If it's off it all feels normal. Even if the cars on and I'm at a stop with the clutch in moving through the gears it feels normal. Only when I'm accelerating this happens.

I wonder if a failed engine/transmission mount (possibly combined with a failed shifter cable housing mount) could allow the transmission to move around too much when accelerating and pull on the shifter cables. If you do a no-gas launch in first gear then, while idling in first, stomp the accelerator pedal to the floor for a couple seconds then dump the accelerator just as abruptly (therefore getting hard acceleration followed abruptly by hard engine braking) while watching your shift lever, does your shift lever jerk wildly? Anyone's would likely move a little, and just how much it ought to move might be tough to describe...


i actually just upgraded my rear motor mount today with a stiffer aftermarket one so maybe it would help? tomorrow ill try that and let you know how much the shifter moves


Rope-Pusher wrote:I would check the gearshift cable connections to the reaction bracket at the transmission end and to the body of the shifter (inside the vehicle, under the console, may be able to detach the shifter boot at the center console and look forward thru the boot hole).

Usually, when something differs while idling at a standstill, or with the engine off, it is because the shift load is reduced in these two situations. So consider what may happen at higher shift loads that doesn't tend to happen at lower shift loads. The cable conduit is fairly stiff and can react low shift loads even when not clipped in, but under high loads, it tends to back away from the connections (when the inner wires, the cable "core" is in Compression, the black outer housing, or "Conduit", is in Tension).


im not very knowledgeable about manual transmissions :) lol so i think i may take the car to the dealer and have them check it out, its under warranty anyway :)

hopefully they dont try to play dumb and claim they cant "replicate" what im experiencing
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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby Squint » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:29 am

jhg1232 wrote:im not very knowledgeable about manual transmissions :) lol so i think i may take the car to the dealer and have them check it out, its under warranty anyway :)

hopefully they dont try to play dumb and claim they cant "replicate" what im experiencing

Take advantage of the warranties while you have them. You paid for it, after all.
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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby TakataDomeNSX » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:54 pm

Hi, sorry to drag up an old thread. Did you ever get this problem fixed?

I think my problem is similar.

When changing from 1st to 2nd it feels like I am yanking the stick out of gear without the clutch pedal fully depressed (it is fully depressed BTW). So from 1st to neutral you get an almost popping sensation. It doesn't happen all the time, today it happened a lot so the drive to work was horrible. The problem also seems to occur more often when turning around a corner. I am changing revs at about 2500-3000rpm, so even at lowish revs the problem occurs.

Ive changed clutch, slave cylinder, bleed numerous times, added shifter bushings, even adjusted the pushrod in the master cylinder but nothing has helped.

Thanks

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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby IMBoring25 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:29 pm

It is possible for the master to be bad and not leaking externally. After I replaced the externally-leaking slave on my 'Vette I took it on a test drive and it repeated its symptoms. Master replacement did the trick. Seems like you've done about everything else.

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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby Rope-Pusher » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:29 pm

Shifting that is fine with the engine off but sticky or notchy with the engine on is often a sign that the clutch isn't disconnecting, especially when the trouble occurs when pulling out of a gear range and into Neutral.

Make sure there is nothing goofy going on, like something keeping you from burrying the clutch pedal. I've been in cars where the wheel well arch interferes with the left side of my clutch foot shoe sole and the pedal doesn't get burried if my foot is centered on the clutch pedal.
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Re: shifting from first to second weird

Postby TakataDomeNSX » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:56 pm

Thanks for the replies.

I was playing around with the clutch pedal today. I noticed that if I dont push the clutch all the way to the floor the gear comes out smoother without the pop. I am leaving about a inch or so in gap between the point I am changing gear and the floor. I wonder if I am over extending the clutch diaphragm, is this even possible? No clutch slippage either.


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