Launch from red lights as fast as possible?

[bde]

I give you one example from my experience where neutral could've caused a crash.

doing a right turn on a residential road from a major one, I've hit an ice patch about 20 meters+ from the turn. I lost the grip and started sliding in a straight line towards the turn. I kept pumping the brake pedal and rocking the streering wheel left and right to shave off a bit more speed. I then had to regain the traction and do a right turn before hitting a concrete median divider. after I shaved off enough speed i just locked the steering wheel to the right and kept pumping both brake and gas to get out of the way. If I would've stayed in neutral- that would be a head on for sure. You just won't have time to go back in gear and accelerate away.

[localdriver]

When I was talking about shifting to neutral will get you out of trouble, I was specifically referring to so called unintended acceleration case recently occurring on some Toyota models. In this situation, the engine roars to redline all of a sudden even if both your feet stay off any pedal., and the car quickly runs up to 120 MPH. Shifting to neutral and brake is the safest way to stop your car. However all the cars having this problem so far are automatic transmissions, and the drivers rarely use neutral gear, if at all. When in panic, it is unlikely you can come up with something you don't use at all (unless you are specially trained). Simply braking will not work here, because at 120 MPH with a WOT engine, the brake can not win at all. So if the driver drives a manual before, he will probably manage to shift to neutral.

[AHTOXA]

I give you one example from my experience where neutral could've caused a crash.

doing a right turn on a residential road from a major one, I've hit an ice patch about 20 meters+ from the turn. I lost the grip and started sliding in a straight line towards the turn. I kept pumping the brake pedal and rocking the streering wheel left and right to shave off a bit more speed. I then had to regain the traction and do a right turn before hitting a concrete median divider. after I shaved off enough speed i just locked the steering wheel to the right and kept pumping both brake and gas to get out of the way. If I would've stayed in neutral- that would be a head on for sure. You just won't have time to go back in gear and accelerate away.

you cannot create additional traction by applying throttle and your case is debatable. Also I don't think it's a good idea to rock the steering wheel side to side in an attempt to shave speed. If you suddently regain traction the car has a high chance of veering off unpredictably.

[konaforever]

Simply braking will not work here, because at 120 MPH with a WOT engine, the brake can not win at all. So if the driver drives a manual before, he will probably manage to shift to neutral.

This has been shown to be false by Car and Driver:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09 ... -tech_dept

They were even able to stop a 540 HP Mustang from 100 MPH with WOT.

[localdriver]

Simply braking will not work here, because at 120 MPH with a WOT engine, the brake can not win at all. So if the driver drives a manual before, he will probably manage to shift to neutral.

This has been shown to be false by Car and Driver:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09 ... -tech_dept

They were even able to stop a 540 HP Mustang from 100 MPH with WOT.

While I believe these tests are valid. It is still not very convincing. The simple rational is if the brake could win a WOT engine with no significantly longer distance than a shut-off engine, why hadn't the patrol officer in the accident stopped the car? According to the 911 call, the car crashed another car at about 120 MPH, and they said there was no brake. I recall when I watched the news on TV, there were witnesses saying they saw the tire was on fire, which probably indicates the driver was heavily applying brake. Anyway, this is a bit off topic...

[eaglecatcher]

It's also possible that maybe he was trying to unstick the throttle rather than push the brakes...

Who knows.

[Tups]

What theholycow said is actually taught in Finnish driving schools as the easiest way to regain control. It might not be the absolutely best way, but 99.8% of new drivers would quite likely crash in such situation if they tried anything else.

I also coast on neutral quite often when there's a long downhill. I don't see anything wrong with that. No babies have been eaten.

[AHTOXA]

Driving schools teach spin recovery and avoidance? Nooo waaaay.

No one needs that. Here we take the car around the block, park it and the instructor sends us to get our pic taken for the license.

[theholycow]

To be fair, the mandatory Drivers Education classroom training does include stuff like that...it's just that nobody remembers it longer than necessary to take the written test.

[watkins]

Wait, there was a test?

[the dumblonde]

If you just give them the old PRND321 they'll assume that shifting to 3, 2, or 1 will cause an explosion or the eating of infants.

I was always taught that R is for race.

[bde]

In a manual tranny u'd just hit gas and clutch (of course I'd try to avoid hitting the clutch early on, to still keep the car in gear and able to manouver out of the problem zone, but your reflexes might get the better of you by forcing to press both pedals right away).

Woah!! you mean brake and clutch?

sorry for the mixup:D

I just meant hitting the brake without clutch first. I generally leave neutral for the very last to-do action in such situation. Of course you can also stall the engine if you forget to switch to neutral if required. That would be the worst thing happening.

you cannot create additional traction by applying throttle and your case is debatable. Also I don't think it's a good idea to rock the steering wheel side to side in an attempt to shave speed. If you suddently regain traction the car has a high chance of veering off unpredictably.

I agree with you about the rocking wheel - try with caution, but don't cancel out completely from your list.
Indeed you won't be able to regain traction by applying more throttle, but you can induce the car's movement slightly in particular direction, depending on how you apply it and the surface which is in contact with the wheels. The weight transfer theory comes into play as well, much less in icy conditions though than on tarmac.

It's always best to go into a snowy parking lot and try things out for yourself once you get comfortable enough with your vehicle and driving. No amount of advice will prepare you for such situation until you get the feeling-out session with your vehicle. Learn how it behaves and you'll have a much better chance reacting next time something happens (better notof course).

Ok, let's combine the two. Let's say your throttle suddenly became stuck open at 90-100% in the same situation. Do you think you would be better off in neutral there, or going WOT towards the bend?.

This gas pedal sticking is really a case that was blown out of proportion. I wouldn't worry about it at all and totally ignore it. I don't drive toyota either:) Of course in such case neutral will be better, but I'd rather sue Toyota for 10 million assuming I stay alive)))

[AHTOXA]

If you just give them the old PRND321 they'll assume that shifting to 3, 2, or 1 will cause an explosion or the eating of infants.

I was always taught that R is for race.

No, lady. R is for Rocket. Shift and BLAST OFF!

[Computerman]

you cannot create additional traction by applying throttle

Indeed you won't be able to regain traction by applying more throttle, but you can induce the car's movement slightly in particular direction, depending on how you apply it and the surface which is in contact with the wheels. The weight transfer theory comes into play as well, much less in icy conditions though than on tarmac.

Again, it all comes down to the circumstances. There are a few instances where applying more throttle will assist with regaining traction. Somtimes during instances of 'driver induced' hydroplaning, with a front wheel drive, applying more throttle is the only way out. But there are so many factors to consider for each circumstance we could be debating this 'till 2012!

It's always best to go into a snowy parking lot and try things out for yourself once you get comfortable enough with your vehicle and driving. No amount of advice will prepare you for such situation until you get the feeling-out session with your vehicle. Learn how it behaves and you'll have a much better chance reacting next time something happens (better notof course).

Best advice this!

[theholycow]

Somtimes during instances of 'driver induced' hydroplaning, with a front wheel drive, applying more throttle is the only way out.

I call that a FWD Powerslide.

Going back to what started this particular tangent discussion in this thread, to say that sometimes a FWD (or RWD) powerslide can help regain traction is not the same as saying you're in dire danger if you coast in neutral for a few seconds around a turn that you should already be taking at a legal, safe, and prudent speed anyway...

Closer to the original subject:
Today as I approached an intersection the light turned green. A big moving truck turned out of the corner gas station into my lane and lumbered towards the light. A small car followed, rudely cutting me off. No big deal, we'll all just cruise through the fresh green light. Wrong!

Moving truck is turning left, but does not hug the left side of the lane as would be polite. Compact car is turning right but does not go through the space that exists to the right of the moving truck, despite being plenty large even for my full size pickup. Instead, the car just blocks that space.

The light is green, I'm going straight, those jerks cut me off, and I want to go! I want a good parking space at work, damnit!

So finally the light is yellow and I get a chance to squeeze between the moving truck and the now-turning compact car (the driver finally figured it out). I lay on it hard and technically run the red light. The guy behind me has a slow reaction but decides to go through anyway. He is almost at a dead stop, at the stop line, when the light turns red...and he goes through anyway.