Driving rear-wheel-drive car through corners

[Echord]

Hi folks, I have been reading this forum for a few months since early this year and learned quite a lot about driving manual cars. I switched to driving manual cars last year June after around 1 month practice around the neighborhood with my 2003 Ford Focus and have been driving since them. Early this year I passed my original automatic Nissan Altima to my roommate.

Recently I purchased a 1997 Miata and had a lot of fun driving it. However an accident two weeks ago hurt my confidence with driving rear-wheel-drive car quite a lot and I started to become overcautious while in that car.

It was a drizzling day and I was making a downhill left turn in first gear. I acquired a habit of sometimes shifting in the middle of the turn when the car speed is low from driving my Ford, which is a front-wheel-drive car. And this time the moment I shifted into the second gear I felt the car completely lose traction, start sliding and it over-steered towards the other side of the traffic. Because of my lack of experience dealing with this kind of situation, I overturned the car, resulting in it fish-tailing 180 degree to the other side(which is my side) of the road, hitting the curb and stopping on the sidewalk, completely facing the opposite direction of the traffic on my side. Rear rim on driver's side was damaged a little bit and the steering wheel got misaligned. Fortunately no one was hurt.

I felt quite regretful about the accident because if I hadn't over-corrected it and handled the turn properly, it would have been my first road drift , instead of having scared everyone waiting on the other side of the traffic

After this driving this Miata always made me nervous. Not saying that I would always overreact but every time when I feel the twitching feedback from the steering wheel, I start thinking the car might skid. In addition, I adopted the way that I slowed the car all the way down before the turn, and shifted to either 2nd or 1st, and VROOM'ed through the corner. I used to hate revving the engine very high at corners but now I feel this might be safer.

So my question is: what could be the reason of my car skidding? Shifting during the turn/slowing down during the turn/it being a downhill turn/bad tires? And what are the best driving techniques for corners? I appreciate any input you guys can put in

[theholycow]

You would have done the same thing in an automatic. You got on it too hard in the turn and broke the rear loose. It happened during your shift, but an automatic would have downshifted if you got on the gas like that. It's possible that your shift was excessively rough too, but that would only be a contributing factor. There may also have been a bump or pothole to break your traction or a patch of lower-traction pavement (perhaps oily). On the road, around other cars, around curbs and such, you need to leave yourself plenty of margin...that's the technique you need.

Way back in the past, after I had a couple hundred thousand miles experience with FWD and with RWD trucks too big to take around turns fast, I started driving pickups. Like the Miata, the rear of a pickup is lightweight. (Edit: That didn't come out right...I bet a Miata's weight distribution is way better. Anyway you get the point.) It took a few close calls (and maybe a bunch of luck) before I got really good at feeling and predicting for RWD while pushing the envelope.

The best thing you can do is practice in controlled conditions. When the consequences are mild (no cars, pedestrians, curbs, etc around, and lots of extra road width) and speeds are low, purposely push the envelope and get sideways or even occasionally spin out. This will replace your nervousness with confidence and ability, and it's also a whole lot of fun. You will learn the best technique. You can also practice on dirt roads or on sandy/dirty paved corners, again only when conditions allow safe failure. Whatever you do, please avoid breaking the law or doing anything unsafe.

Don't say you "overturned the car" unless it landed on its roof and you needed a dozen guys to flip it over so the tires were back on the ground. What you meant was "oversteered".

[theholycow]

Thinking about it more, I bet I can sum that whole post up as this:
You pushed the envelope and the envelope broke. Don't push the envelope except under very controlled conditions where failure is acceptable. With careful practice (and some failures) you'll know how much of your margin you can use in less fail-safe situations like the one you described. Stay safe and legal, and have fun.

[Shadow]

Generally, RWD cars tend to want to oversteer and FWD cars tend to want to understeer....so I think it is important to get a good feel for the handling response when switching from FWD to RWD cars. Also, I always tell people that they should try to brake and downshift before turning, rather than during a turn, at least when they are still learning. It's just too easy to upset the balance of the car in certain situations. Imagine how much trouble you could have been in if you were in a powerful RWD car instead of a Miata.

That said, you really shouldn't fear RWD cars. I prefer them to FWD cars when it comes to driving dynamics. You learned a lesson that gave you more experience with RWD handling.

[Squint]

That said, you really shouldn't fear RWD cars. I prefer them to FWD cars when it comes to driving dynamics. You learned a lesson that gave you more experience with RWD handling.

This, and what Cow said. They handle differently and you happened to have some bad luck, whether it was slick roads, slick tires, too much pedal, whatever. I had a guy do something similar in an Explorer one time because he wasn't used to driving on ice and he over-corrected.

The good news is that you're not hurt, the damage was relatively minor, and you learned something. I did something very similar when it was very icy one time and I hit a patch of black ice I didn't see. Luckily, because I'd been driving this particular RWD car for a couple of years (and had occasionally has kicked out the back end for fun, like Cow had described ) I managed to keep in going in the forward direction. I did clip a tire on the curb, but it was only a small bump and didn't cause any damage (other than my pride).

Keep it up! And keep asking questions!

[IMBoring25]

Strictly speaking, almost all street cars are tuned from the factory to understeer, but any driveline configuration can oversteer with throttle lift during near-limit cornering or due to surface conditions. RWD cars have the added characteristic that they will oversteer with a loss of traction at the drive wheels, whether that is due to injudicious use of the pedal on the right or a badly balked shift.

Unless you've become genuinely timid, I would argue it's very difficult to be over-cautious on a public road. There's oil/sand/gravel on the roads, previously un-noticed bumps...If you're using anything close to the limits of your performance envelope (or that of your car) in an uncontrolled environment, odds are bad stuff will eventually happen. Leaving margin for the unexpected is key to safe driving.

[Shadow]

Strictly speaking, almost all street cars are tuned from the factory to understeer, but any driveline configuration can oversteer with throttle lift during near-limit cornering or due to surface conditions. RWD cars have the added characteristic that they will oversteer with a loss of traction at the drive wheels, whether that is due to injudicious use of the pedal on the right or a badly balked shift.

Yeah, understeer is probably more common (and usually the safer option) on most cars, but when it comes to breaking the tires loose on a RWD vehicle, oversteer is to be expected. That's why I caution drivers who are new to manual transmissions and RWD to downshift before entering a turn/curve. I should also mention that oversteer can still be a concern if accelerating through the turn/curve.

This conversation reminds me of the Scion FR-S thread that I started a few weeks ago about the kid who crashed his brand new car because he was used to the handling characteristics of his old FWD car.

[Echord]

Thanks folks for all the input.

You would have done the same thing in an automatic. You got on it too hard in the turn and broke the rear loose. It happened during your shift, but an automatic would have downshifted if you got on the gas like that. It's possible that your shift was excessively rough too, but that would only be a contributing factor.

I got used to give gas after I shifted to second gear, without even realizing it sometimes. It's safe to bet that I did the same thing that day. This is something I do with my Focus. Even when I get a little bit hard on gas with Focus, I never had any scary moment. I guess I have to get out of this bad habit I have been doing for almost half a year. Before that it was worse, as I used to coast through corners

Don't say you "overturned the car" unless it landed on its roof and you needed a dozen guys to flip it over so the tires were back on the ground. What you meant was "oversteered".

lol thanks for pointing it out.

The best thing you can do is practice in controlled conditions. When the consequences are mild (no cars, pedestrians, curbs, etc around, and lots of extra road width) and speeds are low, purposely push the envelope and get sideways or even occasionally spin out.

This is something I am planning to do. Just need an empty parking lot, maybe even a rainy day as well

Also, I always tell people that they should try to brake and downshift before turning, rather than during a turn, at least when they are still learning.

RWD cars have the added characteristic that they will oversteer with a loss of traction at the drive wheels, whether that is due to injudicious use of the pedal on the right or a badly balked shift.

That's why I caution drivers who are new to manual transmissions and RWD to downshift before entering a turn/curve. I should also mention that oversteer can still be a concern if accelerating through the turn/curve.

This is what I am trying to do these days to unlearn my old habit, even when I am driving my Focus around(I still keep Focus as my main commute car). But there are a few things that always puzzle me. Say when I downshift before the turn the engine RPM naturally goes higher.

I learned from somewhere that RWD cars tend to gain more traction while being steadily accelerated through the turn. Say I slow down and stay at second gear and make the turn. I tried this way without much success, as my speed would be either still a bit higher than what I want that I have to brake during the turn, or low enough to accelerate through the turn that I feel I am slowing the traffic behind me down too much.

Or say I slow down and rev-matched shift to first gear, it could easily get to close to 3000RPM. From what I learned about driving in snow(unfortunately I haven't driven/practiced my Focus in snow yet because this year we barely got any snow in Jersey), when the car gets stuck and it's better to start the car in second gear to prevent wheels spinning. To me this sounds that with too much engine power translated to wheels, it is more likely to lose traction. Could making a turn with a high RPM, even at low speed, a risky move?

To me I just always found there are some sharp turns out there that I can't perform a slow/shift/turn smoothly. This was something I always think I need to polish but never did because it seems I could always get away with a FWD car. Now it just got to the point that I can't wait much longer to fix it

[Shadow]

I learned from somewhere that RWD cars tend to gain more traction while being steadily accelerated through the turn.

I'm not so sure that I agree with that. Steady acceleration through a turn shouldn't be significantly different between FWD and RWD vehicles. The load on the suspension should be more lateral than anything else, regardless of the drivetrain configuration. What we were discussion above was mostly related to accelerating hard enough to break traction on turns/curves. That's when things can get messy.

Say I slow down and stay at second gear and make the turn. I tried this way without much success, as my speed would be either still a bit higher than what I want that I have to brake during the turn, or low enough to accelerate through the turn that I feel I am slowing the traffic behind me down too much.

Second gear should be more than enough to take the majority of turns, whether it's a slow speed turn or a relatively fast turn. I like to do most of my braking before I enter a turn, but there's nothing wrong with braking while you're in a turn. Actually, in most cases I prefer to brake before the turn and then accelerate out of the turn. Gear choice will depend upon the car and the turn/curve. Cars with lots of low-end torque will usually be happy in numerically lower gears and/or lower rpm.

Or say I slow down and rev-matched shift to first gear, it could easily get to close to 3000RPM. From what I learned about driving in snow(unfortunately I haven't driven/practiced my Focus in snow yet because this year we barely got any snow in Jersey), when the car gets stuck and it's better to start the car in second gear to prevent wheels spinning. To me this sounds that with too much engine power translated to wheels, it is more likely to lose traction. Could making a turn with a high RPM, even at low speed, a risky move?

Personally, I never downshift into 1st gear. Well, almost never. The only time I'll do that is if I'm crawling at a super-slow speed, like in heavy stop-and-go traffic or maybe in a parking lot.

But yeah, if you downshift into a lower gear and the tach shoots way up high, it could easily upset the balance of the car. Of course that would be more likely during a turn than it would moving straight ahead. And what you said about snow traction seems correct to me. Starting off in second gear can allow you a way to get less torque to the drive wheels without spinning the tires as much.

BTW, you need to be careful with downshifting into a gear that's too low for your speed. If you go too crazy, you can over-rev the engine....and it's a mechanical over-rev, meaning that even if your car has a rev limiter, it still will not protect the engine from over-revving.

To me I just always found there are some sharp turns out there that I can't perform a slow/shift/turn smoothly. This was something I always think I need to polish but never did because it seems I could always get away with a FWD car. Now it just got to the point that I can't wait much longer to fix it

Try my technique. Make it a habit to downshift (if necessary) into the correct gear before you start the turn. You can even do this making 90-degree turns on city streets or back roads. Then you'll start to get a really good feel for accelerating out of the turn. In time, you'll be really familiar with the way your particular RWD chassis responds to driver input.

[Shadow]

Read the first post in this thread....it's a link to the Scion FR-S crash that I was talking about earlier. The kid who crashed the car was used to FWD cars and he obviously wasn't expecting his new RWD FR-S to behave the way it did.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8821

[AHTOXA]

OP, it's hard to say what could have caused you to have the mishaps as you did. The Miata's not a very powerful car to be able to get away from you that easily but a think a combination of factors played a role as well as a number of unknowns. I believe that the following may have been key factors - too much throttle, bad/old/worn out/plain crummy tires and potentially a bad a shift which upset the balance initially.

The guy that crashed the new FRS drove like a tool - it's hard to blame anything else on that. Some of it is lack of common sense and some of it is lack of understanding of how different cars may generally behave in a given scenario.

Speaking from personal experience (LS2 GTO that I've owned), driving a RWD - even a powerful RWD - isn't difficult and not a totally new experience. It takes a combination of some skill, some experience and mostly common sense. Hell, I got caught in a snowstorm while at work and drove home in a 400 HP car with summer tires on it. I was in the process of buying a winter beater then.

[Echord]

My coworker got his new FR-S early last month when I got my Miata and his FR-S has the exactly same color as the one that crushed in that linked thread!

I think from now on I will try to be really disciplined to use that technique Shadow mentioned when I approach corners, no matter I am driving Focus or Miata. Hopefully I can train my feel up quickly.

However I just realized I digressed from my original accident. Let's get back to my situation described in my first post, which I encounter very often in my every day drive, that I start in first gear from a complete stop before a traffic light and then make an immediate left turn. After the accident I stopped shifting during the turn but if I stay in first gear when I finish the turn the engine RPM could get quite high 2500~3000ish. Isn't this equivalent to a "push-the-envelope" situation? Or should I not try to accelerate even a tiny little bit until I finish the turn. I asked this because in Jersey we get a whole bunch of inpatient drivers. They honk like maniacs for no reason. I know I am bothering here but I just want to make sure I absolutely understand what are the right techniques in different situations..

Originally I got my Miata for participating Autocross. I didn't even know what it was until a few months ago a friend introduced me to it and I think it is absolutely fun and a great sport. I can definitely learn a lot about driving from there too.

[theholycow]

if I stay in first gear when I finish the turn the engine RPM could get quite high 2500~3000ish. Isn't this equivalent to a "push-the-envelope" situation

Well, at 3000rpm in 1st gear you'll have more power at the rear wheels making it more likely that a small twitch of the foot will upset your traction, but you really need to go slower in the corner if you're that close to the limit. What are these other people driving if a Miata driver has to push the envelope to get through a turn without being honked at, Formula 1 cars?

[Squint]

Read the first post in this thread....it's a link to the Scion FR-S crash that I was talking about earlier. The kid who crashed the car was used to FWD cars and he obviously wasn't expecting his new RWD FR-S to behave the way it did.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8821

Shadow, when I first read the OP and then remembered your post... I had the same reaction you did.

And Echord, what does a honk really do? As long as you don't freak out when you hear one, they can just wait and pass you at the next available turn as they wait for their speeding ticket to arrive. Patience should be practiced by far more drivers out there, considering the damage you can do with a vehicle.

[IMBoring25]

2500-3000 isn't really pushing the envelope. It probably runs higher than that at highway speed and there are a lot of people with less-rev-happy vehicles that never shift that low (not that I'd recommend every shift go that high). Until you're familiar with the car and hitting the shift smoothly without the added complication of the corner, it should be easier to avoid upsetting the cornering balance of the car without the added complication of the shift. Moderate steady throttle through the corner, no abrupt changes...