Accidentally (sort of) downshifting 2-1

[goatnt]

I'm still somewhat new to driving a modern MT, so I'll try to properly describe an issue I've had a couple of times. The traffic in my city is normally very stop-and-go and congested, so driving standard can sbe pretty challenging sometimes. An issue I've run into is on a part of my commute where I have to make a left turn across traffic at a light.

Yesterday, I was turning left at a light when a car came speeding down the opposite way. I'd already engaged first gear and started driving when I had to put down the clutch to prepare to come to a stop and let the other car through. To my surprise, the other car came to an abrupt stop and the driver waved me through. I don't quite remember how fast I was going, since I was nearly t-boned and there were cars zooming around me, but I just stayed in first gear and kept going as to get out of the road quickly. It bucked and hopped a bit and felt like the clutch made a pretty hard contact and the tach peaked at about 3700-4k before I'd finished straightening out of the turn and shifted to 2nd gear.

1. Even though I never actually shifted to second before I had to pause, I'd accelerated enough that I could have upshifted. Is it likely that anything could have been damaged when I pushed the clutch in and shifted back to first while still moving? I don't imagine I could've been going faster than 10-15mph, but probably a good bit slower.

2. If any damaged occurred, would it be apparent, or are there any possible hidden damages I should have my car checked for? I'd imagine I shaved some time off of my clutch, but it's more the engine/tranny I'm concerned about. It seems to be operating about normal after the fact.

[ClutchDisc]

You should be fine.. don't worry about it. The clutch can take more than we feel like it can. If they were that fragile mine would have broken 2 years ago when I was learning... I once accidentally threw mine into 2nd getting onto the highway probably going about 50 mph! I'm still driving on that same clutch 2 years later and it's working perfectly.

Btw welcome to the forums!

[theholycow]

Nothing's broken, and what happened to you happens to everyone. Manual transmissions are subject to normal human error, and when something unexpected happens like that, humans make mistakes like that. What you did has happened for as long as there have been cars, and they are built to withstand such mistakes. I've done exactly what you did a few times and I don't even care anymore, now I don't even try to avoid it, I just enjoy the wild ride. My wife does kvetch if she's in the car when it happens, especially if it's her car...

[Squint]

Welcome!

As CD and His Bovine Holiness have stated, we've all done that.

Regardless, you would probably notice any significant damage through the car feeling/acting different if something major had happened. But all newer drivers to manuals end up worrying more than they should over the durability of their clutch. As long as you aren't constantly holding the clutch halfway down (slipping the clutch), you probably aren't screwing anything up too badly.

Ask more questions if you have them!

[rant]Your incident was caused by one of my minor pet peeves... people trying to be courteous, but really messing things up. I love when people realize they aren't the only ones in the world, but right of way exists for a reason and not following it just confuses all of the other drivers on the road.[/rant]

[goatnt]

Thanks for the reassuring feedback, guys!

I thought I might have been worrying a little too much. I guess since first gear is so short, I've always perceived it as being more delicate and catastrophe-prone when it makes a big ruckus on a misshift.

There is another question I have about driving in stop-and-go traffic. I've found several discussions online, but a lot of disagreement about engine lugging. There are people who claim that you know when you are lugging the engine by the car's near-stalling behavior, low vibration, etc. Other people will claim that even cruising below (insert RPM/gear) is lugging the engine because proper oil pressure can't be maintained, and lots of opinions in between. While I can usually keep the rev-happy Honda in a comfortable range, I was wondering if the ECM in a modern drive-by-wire car would even allow a hard acceleration and resulting damage to occur while lugging. I know that if I've been rolling through slow traffic and I have to take off suddenly, 2nd can kind of shudder and struggle a bit.

I appreciate you guys! This place makes the awkward learning phase a little less daunting.

[Squint]

Thanks for the reassuring feedback, guys!

I thought I might have been worrying a little too much. I guess since first gear is so short, I've always perceived it as being more delicate and catastrophe-prone when it makes a big ruckus on a misshift.

There is another question I have about driving in stop-and-go traffic. I've found several discussions online, but a lot of disagreement about engine lugging. There are people who claim that you know when you are lugging the engine by the car's near-stalling behavior, low vibration, etc. Other people will claim that even cruising below (insert RPM/gear) is lugging the engine because proper oil pressure can't be maintained, and lots of opinions in between. While I can usually keep the rev-happy Honda in a comfortable range, I was wondering if the ECM in a modern drive-by-wire car would even allow a hard acceleration and resulting damage to occur while lugging. I know that if I've been rolling through slow traffic and I have to take off suddenly, 2nd can kind of shudder and struggle a bit.

I appreciate you guys! This place makes the awkward learning phase a little less daunting.

Heh, you probably don't realize it, but the word lugging can apparently have very different meanings for different people... That term is the subject of a long running, unsolvable debate on here.

Regardless, I think you are meaning that when you are in a gear and the RPM gets too low so the car starts to shudder and doesn't really have much pull - basically RPM below idle. Personally, I try not to let that happen too much, though I am not car-knowledgable-enough to say that if it does or doesn't cause any damage. I will say random, not often occurrances don't cause any significant damage, because I think we've all done that .

Typically, in heavy traffic, if the RPM tries to go below idle more than just a hair, I'll throw it in neutral or downshift and just coast the distance. I do have the benefit of mostly flat driving (or shallow hills, nothing steep). You can slip the clutch a bit if you need to keep moving and it is really slow but for most cars I've driven, that would be below 5 mph. If you need to do that, I would slip the clutch to start moving at a couple of mph and then go back to neutral to wait until I need to go again. Another tip to avoid having to slip the clutch as much - just leave a little more space between you and the car in front of you. Then you can manage your gas pedal more and use the brakes less to get a very similar result. You will have to train yourself not to get pissed at every idiot that cuts you off because there is a car length in front of you.

Someone with more technical knowledge can weigh in about damage occurring from "lugging."

[theholycow]

Someone with more technical knowledge can weigh in about damage occurring from "lugging."

So, depending on how scary you want the word's meaning to be, it can be...

- Quick destruction of engine: Your ignition system can't adjust the timing enough to prevent severe spark knock. (Since so many people are so incredibly scared of lugging, I find that this definition is the most appropriate.) Makes a unique, clear sound that scares you. "Sounds like metal sh*t exploding under your hood" is how one post describes it. Mostly impossible with computer-controlled ignition systems.

- Extra wear: Oil pressure insufficient for the stress on components.

- Very negligible additional wear: Oil pressure mildly insufficient.

- No consequence: Growling or shuddering because you're a few RPM lower than you ought to be for your throttle opening.

See also http://www.standardshift.com/forum/view ... 271#p91271

[Rope-Pusher]

I think when the engine gets small enough, we refer to it as "carrying", not "lugging" it through airport security..

[tankinbeans]

My story, oft repeated, had me dropping the car in 1st at 70mph after I'd gotten to speed in second. It was a 98 Mustang GT and was screaming like hell. Nothing broke. Key is to get out of first at your earliest convenience and don't make a habit of it.


Goofing up occasionally is expected.

[Squint]

My story, oft repeated, had me dropping the car in 1st at 70mph after I'd gotten to speed in second. It was a 98 Mustang GT and was screaming like hell. Nothing broke. Key is to get out of first at your earliest convenience and don't make a habit of it.


Goofing up occasionally is expected.

Just don't do that. ^^

[tankinbeans]

She liked it!

[goatnt]

Ha! Wonderful! That's the kind of survival story I was hoping to hear.

Hopefully my final silly question... I'm still developing my MT muscle memory, and I've only once accidentally ground my gear. I was coasting to a stop sign in neutral and before coming to a stop, I started to shift into first gear, EXCEPT I totally forgot to push the clutch. Got a brief, but big grind. In the past, first gear synchro would lock me out if it wasn't ready to be shifted to, even if I had the clutch on the floor. I was really surprised that it let me into the gear enough to grind.

1. What is the likelyhood of damage having occurred?

2. Would the wear/damage be mostly to the synchro, or would the gears have also gotten in on that?

[theholycow]

Grinds happen. It's expected and the transmission is designed to survive it.

I shift fast. I know my shift before I execute it and once I start I'm committed. If I make a mistake, like forgetting to declutch, too bad...my arm is doing it whether my foot did its job or not. I grind occasionally. No problem.

Once I shifted my 2008 VW into reverse while at a stop and forgot to use the clutch. Just by luck it actually went into gear with a sickly crunch and a stall. No damage.

The gears are always all fully meshed, they don't take any damage. The synchronizer teeth are where damage occurs but an occasional grind is nothing to worry about.

[tankinbeans]

Nothing silly about asking.

1. Probably not much if the car isn't acting funny. The grinding you hear is your syncro clashing. They're solid steel and can take a beating. Chew would say they're designed with the expectation that humans goof and aren't that fragile.
2. Your syncro has a negligible amount of additional wear, but the gears are constantly connected. They're essentially one piece and if nothing is slipping past something else there won't be wear. Long story short, the gears are fine.

[Squint]

Heh, I very rarely gind after 40k+ miles and (unlike-Moofasa) I don't rush my shifts most of the time. I don't dally, I just don't try to shift extremely quickly unless it is required.

However, I totally just forgot to push the clutch while shifting and did a relatively minor grind while shifting. Whoops.

It happens every now and again, like slipping the clutch, you'll notice if something is damaged - and the odds are you are fine.