Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby theholycow » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:16 pm

Teamwork wrote:
theholycow wrote:Yeah, you're definitely going to need to give it some gas (enough to hold RPM at the right amount for that gear and speed) or else you'll have a ton of engine braking.

Are we speaking about providing gas when slipping the clutch or before I even engage 1st gear to match the revs for the speed?

When slipping the clutch. That's when the engine braking can begin to affect you.

Rev-matching to operate the shift lever has zero effect on bouncing/jerking/bucking/etc (except in so far as the rev-match may not have completely dissipated by the time you engage the clutch).

As for gauge-staring...there's a lot of anti-gauge sentiment on this forum and usually I feel like I must break through the barrier to notify people that gauges aren't evil, that they are there for a reason, that information is what you need and gauges provide it, so go ahead and get an occasional glance at it as long as your eyes are on the road when they need to be. However, in your case I'm inclined to agree with the masses. You are using your gauges and it's not working out for you, so try not using them and see if you can learn better by feel the things that you've failed to learn with proper data.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby Teamwork » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:19 pm

potownrob wrote:
Teamwork wrote:I use my digital speedo read out religiously to the point where I don't know how well I'd fare driving this car turning it off because I rely on the "exact speed" which turns relative to my gears I guess. I'm sure I could adjust over time but I definitely find myself using it greatly. I love it personally- especially since a lot of people complain that the font and gauge layout of the traditional speedo is too busy and hard to read at a glance.
your speedo "abuse" may be impeding your learning and adjusting. i would try doing the apron dance without looking at the speedo; try just looking at the road/driveway where you're moving and go for feel when it comes to choosing the right gear and letting the clutch out (and adding gas). i like pizza.


Ill second that. Watching the speedo or tach will often make learning to drive more difficult. You need to get used to the feel of the car.

Def will be more mindful and I can relate with what you guys are both saying. I think it's more or less that I am unsure of what causes a car to stall when in "too high of a gear"/having anxiety about it. I know when I first started out that I read a ton of things that said you really shouldn't engage 1st gear unless you're at a really negligible roll or stand still. With this being said though in my experience of using 2nd gear in parking lots when I can move around a little more I notice that the car starters to judder and get unhappy with me once it goes below 10 mph in 2nd gear. Now again, this is based off my speedometer discretion- there's been times where I've slipped 2nd gear resuming traffic pace at like 7-8 mph and I got it back up to 10 mph without any juddering or ill advised feelings.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is I'm not sure if that's all in all relative to the actual movement speed or the processes I'm going through to resume a gear and resume moving. Most of the time when I am jerky engaging 1st gear I can amount it to not enough time being spent "slipping" the clutch so perhaps it's the same idea here that I am lifting out of the friction point too quickly and don't quite understand what's going on. :?

As for gauge-staring...there's a lot of anti-gauge sentiment on this forum and usually I feel like I must break through the barrier to notify people that gauges aren't evil, that they are there for a reason, that information is what you need and gauges provide it, so go ahead and get an occasional glance at it as long as your eyes are on the road when they need to be. However, in your case I'm inclined to agree with the masses. You are using your gauges and it's not working out for you, so try not using them and see if you can learn better by feel the things that you've failed to learn with proper data.

Thanks for the input- and I just want to get the story straight that I'm really not staring at my gauges. I only make a mindful, conscious, effort to look when it's safe and there's no traffic around me.. as for the digital speedo- it's really undeniable to see as it's DEAD center in my line of sight and high definition in an IFL display. I'm not taking my eyes off the road to witness this- I just witness it within my line of sight.

I also want to say months back when you were helping me Cow on rough upshifts and downshifts- the tachometer was ultimately the tool I used to decipher where I was going wrong by what you were saying. It honestly helped me a ton from your descriptions and then basing it off the evidence of the attributes of the tach. I can upshift and downshift without relying on it but when I was a newbie it really was some of the best advice given. That and to add a bit of gas with your upshifts to smooth it out... I made HUGE strides with that advice provided.

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby Rope-Pusher » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:23 pm

theholycow wrote:As for gauge-staring...there's a lot of anti-gauge sentiment on this forum and usually I feel like I must break through the barrier to notify people that gauges aren't evil, that they are there for a reason, that information is what you need and gauges provide it, so go ahead and get an occasional glance at it as long as your eyes are on the road when they need to be. However, in your case I'm inclined to agree with the masses. You are using your gauges and it's not working out for you, so try not using them and see if you can learn better by feel the things that you've failed to learn with proper data.

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby theholycow » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:05 pm

:lol: Ok, that was a good one.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby Teamwork » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:07 pm

Just a quick theory and science question for anyone who cares to answer (cow/rope :) ). Like I've said in many posts whenever I amount a jerkyness/unsmoothness I can usually relate it back to how fast I'm lifting the clutch out of the friction point or how long I'm keeping it (pausing in) that zone.

What is actually happening when I ride the friction point longer then other times or when I lift it out too fast? Is the speed of the engine catching up to the fly wheel (which takes time in it's own)? What actually happens when you aren't rev-matching anything and you go into a lower gear at a speed that's moderately high- and you need to "smooth" it out with the clutch? I'm definitely curious to better understand the theory behind this because I think it can really refine some of my sticking points.

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby theholycow » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:41 pm

It's all about synchronizing speeds of stuff with other stuff. You have three things whose speed you are trying to synchronize. That list can be simplified as: Engine, clutch disc, and tires.

When they all agree then everything's cool and everything's smooth.

When you try to force them together suddenly while they're operating at different speeds you cause a major shock that requires energy to be absorbed and dissipated all over the car.

When you play the diplomat by slipping the clutch, slowly bringing them together and giving them time to get used to each other (using friction to gradually allow their speeds to synchronize) before fully clamping down, that same energy is dissipated smoothly through the clutch and flywheel as heat.

Longer explanation:

The flywheel is the engine's output; it is bolted directly to the crankshaft and spins at the speed shown on your tachometer.

Next up is the clutch disc and the transmission input shaft. When you step on the clutch pedal, you release the clutch disc from being pressed against the flywheel. When you take your foot off of the clutch pedal, the clutch disc is engaged to the flywheel by being forced against it. As the clutch pedal gradually rises, the pressure on the clutch disc increases, causing friction and traction between the disc and the flywheel to increase.

The input shaft spins with the clutch disc (edited, I accidentally typed "flywheel" the first time around). It goes into the gearbox and has some gears and synchronizers and stuff. The gears are meshed with gears on the output shaft (perhaps through a third shaft).

The output shaft is connected to your differential/final drive, which is connected to your wheels and spins at the same speed as them. The speedometer could be turned into an output shaft RPM ometer simply by painting it with Wite-Out and scribbling some new numbers on it (but leaving it still connected the same as it always was). You can effectively consider the output shaft to be the wheels.

You have no gauge to show what speed the clutch+input shaft assembly is spinning. However, you can know anyway, except in one situation.

- When the clutch is engaged (assuming no malfunction or anything crazy), as in your foot is off the clutch pedal, the clutch+input shaft are spinning at exactly the speed of the engine/flywheel shown on your tachometer.

- When the transmission is in gear, the clutch+input shaft are spinning at a speed directly proportional to the output shaft/wheels; in most transmissions 4th gear is 1:1 and therefore the clutch+input shaft in 4th are spinning at exactly the same speed as the output shaft, as shown on the tachometer. In other gears the clutch speed is multiplied/divided from road speed.

- When the transmission is in neutral and the clutch is disengaged (pedal is floored), the clutch disc+input shaft are free and, left in that state for a few seconds, will spin down to a stop. During those few seconds you have only guesswork to tell you about the speed of the clutch disc+input shaft.

A common single-clutch upshift, say from 1st to 2nd, goes like this:

1. You floor the clutch pedal. Disc is released from the flywheel. Engine is disconnected from tires. If you don't touch the accelerator pedal and the computer isn't a smartass, your engine begins to lose speed (tachometer needle begins to drop).

2. You shift from 1 to 2. Stuff moves around in the gearbox, the clutch disc spins freely for a moment as you shift through neutral, then as the shift lever approaches 2 the synchronizers adjust the RPM of the input shaft and clutch disc (which is still uncoupled from the engine) to match the new speed for 2nd gear.

3. You engage the clutch by taking your foot off the clutch pedal. As the pedal comes up and the clutch disc is shoved against the flyhweel, the engine and the tires get in a fight unless they are already perfectly synchronized.

Everything between the engine and tires is caught in the crossfire, as well as the stuff that the engine and tires lean on. If everything was perfectly solidly connected then you'd get one hard jerk and that would be it. However, there is slop everywhere. The engine is mounted on rubber mounts. The wheels connect to the car through springs. The wheels connect to the engine through a bunch of stuff, including the clutch disc's spring-loaded hub (imagine the wind-up spring in an old watch or toy, though the actual type of spring is different, the clutch disc hub does wind up inside the disc in that fashion, just a lot less).

If everything (suspension, engine mounts, drivetrain) absorbs enough energy it all gets released hard enough to swing the proverbial pendulum in the opposite direction, then back and forth, winding up and releasing until the energy is dissipated.

Still with me?

When you "ride the friction point" or "smooth it out with the clutch" (aka slip the clutch), you cause much of the shock energy (the difference in speed between the flywheel [engine speed] and clutch [multiplied/divided road speed because you're in-gear]) to be dissipated as heat via clutch/flywheel friction instead of winding up everything else so much.

When you "lift it out too fast" you force everything that can absorb energy to wind up by absorbing the shock of the sudden change in engine/road speed and then release that energy and begin vaccilation.
Last edited by theholycow on Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby Teamwork » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:16 pm

I honestly wouldn't expect much less from you Cow in terms of caliber. First, thanks- I'm definitely going to read it over but dissect some things to make it either clearer or that needs clarification by me.

When you play the diplomat by slipping the clutch, slowly bringing them together and giving them time to get used to each other (using friction to gradually allow their speeds to synchronize) before fully clamping down, that same energy is dissipated smoothly through the clutch and flywheel as heat.

I've actually always wanted to ask this but how much of a role does my left leg play in terms of "stamping" or slowly flooring the clutch. I ask mostly because at times I feel like as I'm approaching a driveway apron and need to yield or some scenario where I'm in 1st gear and I floor the clutch at around 1000-1200 rpm to prepare for a full stop- I physically feel like and can hear what I am guessing is the fly wheel releasing. Is this generally normal or does it also play into how fast I'm physically putting the pedal to the firewall? I never disengage and floor the clutch when I'm coming to an intended full stop until I'm about in the ball park of 1000-1200 rpm in whatever gear I'm in. I'm not sure if it's relative to the RPM that it's being released at or has nothing to do with it.

The input shaft spins with the flywheel. It goes into the gearbox and has some gears and synchronizers and stuff. The gears are meshed with gears on the output shaft (perhaps through a third shaft).

Probably a question that you'll cringe at but what is the average life expectancy of synchronizers during a car's life? I know a ton of variables probably come into play but hypothetically speaking, no abusive behaviors, and just daily driving grinds... How would you know when a synchronizer is shot or malfunctioning?

2. You shift from 1 to 2. Stuff moves around in the gearbox, the clutch disc spins freely for a moment as you shift through neutral, then as the shift lever approaches 2 the synchronizers adjust the RPM of the input shaft and clutch disc (which is still uncoupled from the engine) to match the new speed for 2nd gear.

So there is a human aspect of being you're own synchronizer or to at least assist the discrepancies that present itself the best you can so you can take a load off the actual synchronizers? Unrelated to a degree but why is it when you add a touch of gas between upshifts at the friction point that it "smooths" things out. What is the background science behind that doing what it does.. It took me a long time to finally get that down and when I did it was a serious "a-ha!" moment. Is it possible to upshift as "smooth" without adding any gas during the process or is it something that relatively needs to be done?

When you "ride the friction point" or "smooth it out with the clutch" (aka slip the clutch), you cause much of the shock energy (the difference in speed between the flywheel [engine speed] and clutch [multiplied/divided road speed because you're in-gear]) to be dissipated as heat via clutch/flywheel friction instead of winding up everything else so much.

And maybe the most important question of them all... is this generally accepted as a process to do? Is it looked down upon?

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby theholycow » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:48 pm

Teamwork wrote:I floor the clutch at around 1000-1200 rpm to prepare for a full stop- I physically feel like and can hear what I am guessing is the fly wheel releasing. Is this generally normal or does it also play into how fast I'm physically putting the pedal to the firewall? I never disengage and floor the clutch when I'm coming to an intended full stop until I'm about in the ball park of 1000-1200 rpm in whatever gear I'm in. I'm not sure if it's relative to the RPM that it's being released at or has nothing to do with it.

I doubt you're hearing the clutch disc releasing from the flywheel. (It's the clutch disc that is released, not the flywheel. The clutch disc can move along the input shaft, closer and further from the flywheel; the flywheel stays in place. Also, for simplicity I haven't mentioned the pressure plate, but don't be surprised if you read about it...it is what pushes the clutch disc against the flywheel.)

The input shaft spins with the flywheel. It goes into the gearbox and has some gears and synchronizers and stuff. The gears are meshed with gears on the output shaft (perhaps through a third shaft).

GACK! I mucked that up. The input shaft spins with the clutch disc. (Of course with the clutch fully engaged, the input shaft also spins with the flywheel.)

Probably a question that you'll cringe at but what is the average life expectancy of synchronizers during a car's life?

They are designed to last as long as the rest of the car and are not considered a regular replacement/wear item. In reality some people chew them up in 150,000 miles or even less, while others never notice any wear.

How would you know when a synchronizer is shot or malfunctioning?

You get grinding during normal shifts and have to double-clutch to prevent it.

So there is a human aspect of being you're own synchronizer

That's double-clutching. For unsynchronized transmissions, or transmissions with worn or lame synchronizers, double-clutching avoids grinding. For decent transmissions, double-clutching can sometimes speed up a huge downshift that would normally take a few seconds before the shifter goes into gear, like a 20mph downshift into 1st.

Unrelated to a degree but why is it when you add a touch of gas between upshifts at the friction point that it "smooths" things out. What is the background science behind that doing what it does..

When adding a touch of gas helps it's because the engine was going too slow for the chosen gear at the current road speed. If you didn't add the gas and just dumped the clutch, the car would nose-dive as if you stepped on the brake and the tachometer would shoot up; the engine gets sped up by the road (through the drivetrain), and for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, which in this case is engine braking.

Is it possible to upshift as "smooth" without adding any gas during the process or is it something that relatively needs to be done?

Depends on the car, the situation, the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow, the gravitational constant of the universe, the level of brownian motion in today's coffee, and the current age (in seconds) of Richard Petty.

...but seriously. Every pre-computer carbureted car will require you to give it a little gas for an average upshift or else the engine will idle down too much. Every obedient computerized car that doesn't think it knows better than the driver will too. Meddling know-it-all computers that insist that they know what is good for you may sometimes or always keep engine RPM high. Lately, those with drive-by-wire throttles are sometimes programmed to keep RPM far too high, resulting in a situation that you can't fix (rev hang) and you just have to ease in the clutch just-right to drag down the engine RPM without waiting all day so you can get on with accelerating again.

When you "ride the friction point" or "smooth it out with the clutch" (aka slip the clutch), you cause much of the shock energy (the difference in speed between the flywheel [engine speed] and clutch [multiplied/divided road speed because you're in-gear]) to be dissipated as heat via clutch/flywheel friction instead of winding up everything else so much.

And maybe the most important question of them all... is this generally accepted as a process to do? Is it looked down upon?

It is generally accepted.

For some situations I advise doing better than what is generally accepted, though. Certainly when it's as easy as stepping on the gas a little instead, that is much better than generally accepted.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby Teamwork » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:23 pm

I doubt you're hearing the clutch disc releasing from the flywheel. (It's the clutch disc that is released, not the flywheel. The clutch disc can move along the input shaft, closer and further from the flywheel; the flywheel stays in place. Also, for simplicity I haven't mentioned the pressure plate, but don't be surprised if you read about it...it is what pushes the clutch disc against the flywheel.)

Yeah I definitely can hear something metallic, I get the sense that it's "opening up" sometimes when I'm in a low gear winding it out and have to come to a stop. Again, I try and disengage the clutch at relatively low rpm's and I can't really place my finger on a variable that causes it or not.

It is generally accepted.

For some situations I advise doing better than what is generally accepted, though. Certainly when it's as easy as stepping on the gas a little instead, that is much better than generally accepted.

Stepping on the gas (in a gear) as opposed to riding the clutch? It's almost tell-tale that whenever I am jerky or unsmooth that I can amount it for lifting off the clutch too quickly so I just get more mindful and usually adjust the next time around. I know there's such thing as "too long" but it's probably relative.

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby tankinbeans » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:08 pm

My car does the blip between shits on te upswing for me. It's always fun to hear.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby theholycow » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:34 am

Teamwork wrote:Yeah I definitely can hear something metallic, I get the sense that it's "opening up" sometimes when I'm in a low gear winding it out and have to come to a stop. Again, I try and disengage the clutch at relatively low rpm's and I can't really place my finger on a variable that causes it or not.

I wonder if you have a broken mount for engine, transmission, or exhaust. You could be hearing a mount clanging, or the exhaust clanging, or even the catalytic converter hitting its heat shield, as all that stuff gets jostled around.

Stepping on the gas (in a gear) as opposed to riding the clutch? It's almost tell-tale that whenever I am jerky or unsmooth that I can amount it for lifting off the clutch too quickly so I just get more mindful and usually adjust the next time around. I know there's such thing as "too long" but it's probably relative.

It can be simplified to this: If, during a shift, in any way you can make things smoother by operating the accelerator instead of the clutch pedal, that is the superior option. Most of the time it's splitting hairs though and doing the job with the clutch is absolutely fine if that works better for you.

In the history of cars, the percentage of people who never learned any of this stuff is so close to 100% that I can't begin to guess how many decimal places would be necessary to express it, and they've been fine the whole time. When we talk about this stuff here, much of it is rooted in the very basics that are necessary to achieve the level of proficiency that most people have exercised since the beginning, but most of it is not necessary. We like to talk about optimizing far beyond the necessary level because we enjoy the challenge, we enjoy being proud of excellence, and there are occasional minor functional advantages that while unnecessary are nice.

Edit: One additional thought -- one good reason to split hairs the way we do is that maybe, just maybe, one out of a hundred people here will save some money in the long run because clutch replacement is so much more expensive now than it used to be. There is the addition of concentric slave cylinders that are expected to be replaced at the same time, and there's probably much more labor on a FWD transverse vehicle than an old-fashioned RWD longitudinal.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby Teamwork » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:17 pm

I wonder if you have a broken mount for engine, transmission, or exhaust. You could be hearing a mount clanging, or the exhaust clanging, or even the catalytic converter hitting its heat shield, as all that stuff gets jostled around.

I'm going to get it checked out in less then a month for my first 10k interval. I wouldn't be surprised but the thing is it seems very intermittent, definitely not consistent, and I would even say not that often. I was just guessing it had to do with the RPM level, or how fast I'm stamping on the clutch, or both. The thing is it seemed to happen more prevalent when the weather was below 32 degrees. It warmed up considerably now and I don't really notice it as much.

It can be simplified to this: If, during a shift, in any way you can make things smoother by operating the accelerator instead of the clutch pedal, that is the superior option. Most of the time it's splitting hairs though and doing the job with the clutch is absolutely fine if that works better for you.

Yeah the hardest transitional strides I had to make so far in this journey was to stop viewing the disengagement/engagement of the clutch as something that was either "on/off" and as an analog application. For whatever reason also, I viewed that adding gas when in the bite/friction point was a no-no also. So, a lot of my upshifts were basically me using the clutch only > waiting for the rpms > and then gas in a conscious effort. Once I was provided the advice to add a touch of throttle when upshifting (granted I didn't understand the theory) smoothed things out considerably. I was getting beaten up off the line because I really had to wait for the revs to drop (+rev hang) in order to get a relatively smooth shift.

On a side note- quite a few people are replacing the clutches in their GTI's to support more power already. They are throwing down $1000-$1200 for the parts a lone and who even knows how much labor is going to cost for installation. The OEM clutches in these cars really can't support much more power then what these cars are already making 220 hp/264lb-ft... A lot of the tuner companies are making a "low output" stage 1 which is a marginal increase to upper 200's/low 300's and people are getting clutch slip in 4th forward. I could never understand how someone buys a new car, has less then 3000 miles on it, and has to make a big ticket purchase such as this (nevermind they probably bought a lot of other parts +the tune).

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby tankinbeans » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:29 pm

I agree with the non-understanding of people who immediately upgrade the car shortly after buying. My guess is they should have bought a different car in the first place.

I keep having somebody suggest that I "upgrade" my car with a tune and exhaust. It is supremely not worth my time or money.

I, like Six, have plenty of power and am not a racing driver. Mrs. Frizzle is plenty for me.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby Jastreb » Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:03 pm

Teamwork wrote: I wouldn't be surprised but the thing is it seems very intermittent, definitely not consistent, and I would even say not that often. I was just guessing it had to do with the RPM level, or how fast I'm stamping on the clutch, or both. The thing is it seemed to happen more prevalent when the weather was below 32 degrees. It warmed up considerably now and I don't really notice it as much.


Cars feel more temperamental when it's cold. Materials contract at different rates, so clearances between parts can change. Could even be play in your clutch pedal mounting.... Also rubber bushings and mounts get stiffer when it's cold.

Yeah the hardest transitional strides I had to make so far in this journey was to stop viewing the disengagement/engagement of the clutch as something that was either "on/off" and as an analog application. For whatever reason also, I viewed that adding gas when in the bite/friction point was a no-no also.

I blame Hollywood portrayal of manual transmission shifting. It's all vin Diesel's fault. Seriously, how many movies have you seen with smooth, deliberate shifting? It's always a close up of the the clutch pedal being stomped into the floor, the shifter being rammed into gear and the clutch getting dumped. See that enough and you get conditioned to think the clutch is an on-off switch.

On a side note- quite a few people are replacing the clutches in their GTI's to support more power already. They are throwing down $1000-$1200 for the parts a lone and who even knows how much labor is going to cost for installation. The OEM clutches in these cars really can't support much more power then what these cars are already making 220 hp/264lb-ft... A lot of the tuner companies are making a "low output" stage 1 which is a marginal increase to upper 200's/low 300's and people are getting clutch slip in 4th forward. I could never understand how someone buys a new car, has less then 3000 miles on it, and has to make a big ticket purchase such as this (nevermind they probably bought a lot of other parts +the tune).

There is a peer pressure to upgrade on car enthusiast forums. Especially if the crowd is younger/less mature. And it's relatively easy to tune the turbo 2-liters for more power, so the temptation is there. Never mind that so much power on a FWD is kind of a waste. Or that the rest if the drivetrain can't handle it. Or that they can't handle it. It becomes a status thing. Many people don't think about the why, or what exactly they hope to achieve.
2009 Mazda RX-8 R3

Teamwork
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:49 pm
Cars: 2015 VW GTI

Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Postby Teamwork » Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:40 pm

Cars feel more temperamental when it's cold. Materials contract at different rates, so clearances between parts can change. Could even be play in your clutch pedal mounting.... Also rubber bushings and mounts get stiffer when it's cold.

I do hear it at times when it's super warm outside- but it seems more prevalent in the cold. I might try and re-create it in a video with sound if I get really ambitious. It might not be as "known" to passengers as I make it seem. I regularly drive with "outsiders" who have no grasp or understanding of manual transmissions and I don't usually get any complaints or shifty eyes over many of the actions I do. I usually gauge an outside perspective because I am naturally overly critical of myself.

I blame Hollywood portrayal of manual transmission shifting. It's all vin Diesel's fault. Seriously, how many movies have you seen with smooth, deliberate shifting? It's always a close up of the the clutch pedal being stomped into the floor, the shifter being rammed into gear and the clutch getting dumped. See that enough and you get conditioned to think the clutch is an on-off switch.

I get that but more specifically I blame bad advice on the internet. In one of the other pages of this thread I basically stated that I wish I found this forum for knowledge and information when I started. The problem that hindered me a lot of the time of learning in first impression stages was a lot of false, bad, or extreme advice/information that I've read across the world wide web.

There is a peer pressure to upgrade on car enthusiast forums. Especially if the crowd is younger/less mature. And it's relatively easy to tune the turbo 2-liters for more power, so the temptation is there. Never mind that so much power on a FWD is kind of a waste. Or that the rest if the drivetrain can't handle it. Or that they can't handle it. It becomes a status thing. Many people don't think about the why, or what exactly they hope to achieve.

Definitely agree and honestly- if it wasn't a serious roll of the dice I would highly consider doing it. I'm satisfied with the power being made and how it is in terms of drive-a-bility but I think the sweet spot for FWD would essentially be 260-280 hp range and close to 300 lb ft of torque. I really wouldn't want anything higher then that and couldn't find an excuse to do anything more extreme. I have tire slippage on the crappy OEM Bridgestone's if I am on like fine sand or at a certain angle of pavement. Nevermind, the care needed in the rain and wet...


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