Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by theholycow »

^Well said.

On that last point: If it's steep/long enough to need the brake pedal, that's likely the perfect situation to choose DFCO instead.
Teamwork wrote:He has a modern day Acura with a 6 speed manual and on long stints on the highway he basically coasts in neutral and re-engaged a gear if needby for the said claims of "fuel economy". Maybe I'm mistaken on my views of hyper miling but this seems like he would be using more gas idling,
Is he doing Pulse & Glide? That's a strategy that works by using the engine to produce energy most efficiently for a short time and then allowing the car to coast efficiently, preferably timed to take advantage of rolling terrain, wind, etc. Part-throttle cruising and excess engine revolutions cost energy; P&G is a technique to avoid those types of waste.
He openly admits he doesn't rev match on down shifts at all, so naturally some instances he's pretty jerky.
That may be a choice he has made for the sake of hypermiling. I'd rather spend a very small amount of fuel, which is far more easily replaced, than trade it off for (a minuscule amount of) increased normal wear...but it is understandable.
I can't really say for sure what direction I'm being jerked because it does feel minor in the movement sense. It could be the brain overload but this is by no means a "movement" jerk where I'm going through the windshield or into the back of my seat. The best way I could describe it is- it "pops" and lets me know that I'm into 2nd gear. If I had to make an educated assumption based on what I know- I think, its related to the revs dropping to idle and shooting back up when I go into the lower gear- relative to speed.
I know that using the tools at your disposal is sometimes treated as verboten here on StandardShift, but your gauges aren't there for the sake of the plastics company that supplied the materials for them...they're there for you to look at so you can gather data about your car and your driving. Go ahead and eyeball that tachometer, if it is safe to do so, sometimes when you expect the "pop". See if it's dipping and jumping back up, or if it's holding too high and then diving down. I look at the tach in automatics and I look at it in manuals, I'm a data junkie.
After all, I'm not trying to set a time attack record going around 90 degree turns.
Good. Keep your priorities in mind, and keep your priorities adjusted reasonably for the context...if you're driving on public roads then safety, legality, and courtesy are important.
If I were to blip I would need to either brake harder and slow down to the point where I don't need it anymore, earlier.. or heel and toe which is something I can't do.
Heel-toe might come more easily than you think. VW designers expect drivers to HT; they even published advice for it on their website at one point. They place the pedals pretty reasonably well for HT. The key is to avoid pigeonholing your technique by whatever illustration or example you've seen, and to remember that it's generally done during extreme situations when you're braking hard and need a huge roaring-engine blip. The most popular way seems to be heel on accelerator, toe on brake, but my ankle doesn't turn that way. I can do heel (or arch, really) on brake, toe on accelerator pedal (the top of the pedal, perfect with VW's bottom-hinged pedal), but most of all I use my wide foot to just straddle both pedals with the ball of my foot. Over time I got better at modulating it for more moderate braking and blips. (Then when I built my Buick I placed the pedals perfectly for it...)
with the automatic I could modulate the brake only even while in the turn.
If I understand correctly, and if you'd like to do exactly that, then you can revisit the idea of shifting ahead of time... a big loud VROOM as you double-clutch into your target gear at too-high speed before braking for the turn. However, part of the fun of driving manual is learning to multitask a million things all at once. It's incredibly satisfying to perfectly execute a big double clutch heel toe downshift in the middle of a turn and then blast out of it.
If someone is following me into a turn they are typically right on my rear bumper so efficiency and swiftness is almost always required- same goes to when I'm waiting on rev hang to 2nd from 1st. I know I'm in motion but I can see that rear view mirror an object is getting closer.
I too get antsy about people riding up on my rear bumper. I don't like people standing too close to me and I don't like them driving too close to me either. Over time it has gotten worse, I think. I've taken to reducing my rearward visibility (with a heavily tinted mirror) so that I have to choose to look.
Yeah the only ratio that I find kind of odd is 2nd since I can't drop below double digits with juddering and possibly stalling.
It won't stall. You could force it down to 100RPM and it will struggle and chug and judder and as soon as you step on that clutch it will stumble and then roar back to life.
I like where I'm at with 6th... even at 60 mph I have to be around 1800 rpms. On the top end (on a closed course of course) at 85-86 mph I was just under 3k. I don't have much manual car experience to know if this is decent or average
That is exceedingly rare among import and compact cars. The only manual vehicles I've heard of with that kind of long stride are GM V8 cars (Corvette, Camaro/FIrebird, etc), though I'm sure there are other examples. Manufacturers dread the magazine review that says the car is gutless on the highway so they make sure there's no need to downshift. I'd bet those GM examples were a necessary nod to fuel economy to avoid CAFE fines.
What I'm unsure of is how much of a jerk is acceptable and good on the vehicle versus being "automatic" like smooth.
If you wanted to be as boring as an automatic, you could just drive an automatic. One of the things I like about manual is getting to feel my shifts more. One of the things I'd plan to modify in my next automatic would be increased line pressure so I can get a little kick from each shift.
I've been dodging this entrance apron at one of my jobs for months now.
Keep dodging it. Avoid it until you feel more confident. When it's all second-nature to you, you'll be able to do it without thinking; you'll shift like an automatic when necessary. That's probably a few years off yet.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork »

Is he doing Pulse & Glide? That's a strategy that works by using the engine to produce energy most efficiently for a short time and then allowing the car to coast efficiently, preferably timed to take advantage of rolling terrain, wind, etc. Part-throttle cruising and excess engine revolutions cost energy; P&G is a technique to avoid those types of waste.
I really couldn't say. I might try bringing it up to him in casual conversation if an opportunity presents itself but he is like me, completely self taught without a mentoring figure.
I know that using the tools at your disposal is sometimes treated as verboten here on StandardShift, but your gauges aren't there for the sake of the plastics company that supplied the materials for them...they're there for you to look at so you can gather data about your car and your driving. Go ahead and eyeball that tachometer, if it is safe to do so, sometimes when you expect the "pop". See if it's dipping and jumping back up, or if it's holding too high and then diving down. I look at the tach in automatics and I look at it in manuals, I'm a data junkie.
I use all the gauges liberally when it's safe to glance down and I know I wouldn't be putting myself in an immediate danger. All of the speeds that I'm listing in scenarios are pretty much to a tee because I use a digital speedometer readout through the IFL screen. It's one of my favorite features of the car honestly because I feel like I can glance easily, know what it is and divert attention else where. It might seem nit picking but I wish the gauges weren't set up in a 50/50 stance- I really preferred the gauge set up of the Mazda 3 S and the BRZ/FRS twins with a HUGE tachometer right in front of your face and speedo off to the side (another vehicle with a digital speedo layout too). I digress, though... I've used the tach to pretty much trouble shoot most of my upshift/downshift quibbles but it's harder for me to notice it when I'm turning, setting up a new gear, and shuffling pedals- I'll try and make a conscious effort of symptoms when I can but I know it's dropping to idle and shooting up when going into 2nd.
Heel-toe might come more easily than you think. VW designers expect drivers to HT; they even published advice for it on their website at one point. They place the pedals pretty reasonably well for HT. The key is to avoid pigeonholing your technique by whatever illustration or example you've seen, and to remember that it's generally done during extreme situations when you're braking hard and need a huge roaring-engine blip. The most popular way seems to be heel on accelerator, toe on brake, but my ankle doesn't turn that way. I can do heel (or arch, really) on brake, toe on accelerator pedal (the top of the pedal, perfect with VW's bottom-hinged pedal), but most of all I use my wide foot to just straddle both pedals with the ball of my foot. Over time I got better at modulating it for more moderate braking and blips. (Then when I built my Buick I placed the pedals perfectly for it...)
I'm a very active member on a VW enthusiast forum (going to remain nameless/not sure if I'd be breaking forum rules here if I name dropped) and the heel and toe topic gets brought up a lot for the MK7 Golf, Golf R, Golf GTI... the whole family. I think the general consensus from the "track guys" is that it is overall a PITA to achieve in this particular model and the results are kind of negligible in being beneficial. You'll take it with a grain of salt since I am new and definitely not great at it but what I find "difficult" about it is not so much the pedal placement going side to side but the up and down placement of the brake and throttle. The brake pedal is considerably closer (higher) to the driver while the throttle is pushed back so the only true way to "blip" is by depressing the brake a considerable amount. This might sound fine but my car is equipped with the "performance package" that came with larger rotors and pads and they are the hardest biting brakes I've ever used in my life. What makes matters in this case even worse is the throttle is not very sensitive and needs a liberal push from time to time. Even in "sport mode" (driver selected modes that calibrate) the throttle... well it needs encouraging. So in short: super hard biting, sensitive brake + inconsistently spotty throttle.
It won't stall. You could force it down to 100RPM and it will struggle and chug and judder and as soon as you step on that clutch it will stumble and then roar back to life.
Thanks for clarifying- I was only assuming. I've never stalled by leaving the car in gear and letting the rpm drop too low. As soon as I felt/heard the juddering I would basically make a move instantly. This could be part of why I'm struggling in parking lots so much because once I sense it happening I want to do something and I'm not sure exactly what.
That is exceedingly rare among import and compact cars. The only manual vehicles I've heard of with that kind of long stride are GM V8 cars (Corvette, Camaro/FIrebird, etc), though I'm sure there are other examples. Manufacturers dread the magazine review that says the car is gutless on the highway so they make sure there's no need to downshift. I'd bet those GM examples were a necessary nod to fuel economy to avoid CAFE fines.
I figured that it was decent. I mean I came from two Toyota 1.8L's in a Corolla and Matrix with a 4 speed automatic... and both gave me head aches on the highway. It would literally be just under 70 mph and just under 3k rpm. Just under 3k rpm in this car is literally 89-90 mph in 6th gear. The lowest speed I think one could "hypermile" in 6th safely and without lugging is just over 42 mph. The engine is dead and I personally wouldn't do it around town unless it was really late at night with minimal cars.
If you wanted to be as boring as an automatic, you could just drive an automatic. One of the things I like about manual is getting to feel my shifts more. One of the things I'd plan to modify in my next automatic would be increased line pressure so I can get a little kick from each shift.
Interesting point and I think it has to do with a mindset I'm trying to get out of. I still drive a traditional automatic car from time to time and after operating manual for some months now I'm starting to realize that within traditional automatic's they aren't as smooth as I remember. I'm not trying to fabricate an excuse to be jerky from time to time but I think I might be too hard on myself at times. I'm kind of a perfectionist so this whole thing was a humbling experience to say the least.
Keep dodging it. Avoid it until you feel more confident. When it's all second-nature to you, you'll be able to do it without thinking; you'll shift like an automatic when necessary. That's probably a few years off yet.
Unfortunately not the answer I was looking for but I understand it. It's not a terrible inconvenience (I take a back entrance which is further down the road and on a more level ground) but I hate the idea of dodging something. I'm not trying to talk up Long Island or anything but there's really no dodging every driving situation here. Believe it or not I actually do a bias of 60% highway driving (maybe even higher) and 40% around town but the problem is 50% of the time the max highway speed is probably equivalent (or lower even) then a town speed of 30 mph lol. The point being is I couldn't dodge going up a steep incline nearly everyday and crawling in traffic. I'll definitely try tackling it when I am more confident about it because like I spelled out in terms of room of error- it basically can't be.

Stepping back from all of this I had two more basic questions to present that aren't so much scenario based:
- What is a appropriate rpm range for just cruising in a high gear? If I had to try and answer this question myself I find myself keeping the rpm's between 1500-1800 in the highest gear I feel comfortable in.
- (Kind of the 2nd part) I know this is probably subjective but what is good general rule of thumb for around town driving with marginal traffic. Being in one gear too high approach (where you would downshift one gear for power or if the road opens up) or just staying modulating the the throttle in one gear lower? I typically feel like I straddle both.

And one last personal question to the cow: What ever happened to the fate of the Rabbit?

Thanks all- I feel like I'm making strides here.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Rope-Pusher »

Teamwork wrote: Image
Dis guy Apollo Creed keeps wantin' ta fight me for the whirled championship of the world, but I'm just a club fighter and I'm thinkin' I'm not ready to fight him.
Image
Keep dodging it. Avoid it until you feel more confident. When it's all second-nature to you, you'll be able to do it without thinking; you'll eat lightning and crap thunder when necessary. That's probably a few years off yet.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Squint »

Well. Novel length posts all around. Welcome to the board!

Cow, I think one of the reasons people stand by the idea of "in gear or out of control" is that if memory serves, some European countries required being in gear or on the brake in their driving test.

Other than down long hills, I don't know that Kentucky has any regulations on that... perhaps I'll look it up later if I have the time.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Rope-Pusher »

Squint wrote:Well. Novel length posts all around. Welcome to the board!

Cow, I think one of the reasons people stand by the idea of "in gear or out of control" is that if memory serves, some European countries required being in gear or on the brake in their driving test.

Other than down long hills, I don't know that Kentucky has any regulations on that... perhaps I'll look it up later if I have the time.
It's literally impossible to not be in Neutral during some time while drivin' Amish.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by theholycow »

Teamwork wrote:up and down placement of the brake and throttle. The brake pedal is considerably closer (higher) to the driver while the throttle is pushed back so the only true way to "blip" is by depressing the brake a considerable amount. This might sound fine but my car is equipped with the "performance package" that came with larger rotors and pads and they are the hardest biting brakes I've ever used in my life. What makes matters in this case even worse is the throttle is not very sensitive and needs a liberal push from time to time.
You know, I'm not surprised. That's the sort of thing VW does, make a substantially excellent car and then take a few simple things and (often inexplicably) ruin them, marring an otherwise excellent driving experience. With the less-normal way my ankles bend I could probably do it in that car though, that sounds like a comfortable position for me, heel on the brake up high and toe ballerina'd down deep into the accelerator pedal.
Thanks for clarifying- I was only assuming. I've never stalled by leaving the car in gear and letting the rpm drop too low. As soon as I felt/heard the juddering I would basically make a move instantly. This could be part of why I'm struggling in parking lots so much because once I sense it happening I want to do something and I'm not sure exactly what.
Don't get me wrong...if it's doing some of that stuff, complaining and juddering and bucking and so forth, you want to do something about it. Don't keep torturing it when it tells you something's wrong. Just don't panic, don't worry that you've hurt it, and don't worry that it will stall.
Interesting point and I think it has to do with a mindset I'm trying to get out of. I still drive a traditional automatic car from time to time and after operating manual for some months now I'm starting to realize that within traditional automatic's they aren't as smooth as I remember. I'm not trying to fabricate an excuse to be jerky from time to time but I think I might be too hard on myself at times. I'm kind of a perfectionist so this whole thing was a humbling experience to say the least.
That's pretty common when new. Although I didn't chase the ever-so-popular smoothness dragon (I can do smooth when I want to, but I never want to), I did chase (and achieve) other types of perfection. My current car is so sloppy that no amount of driver perfection can produce perfect results anyway...
Unfortunately not the answer I was looking for but I understand it.
In another place I might encourage you to continue trying to perfect it now, perhaps by DCing into 1st before even taking the turn (and accepting a lot of otherwise-unnecessary "vroom"), but it sounds like the stakes are too high there to take that risk.
- What is a appropriate rpm range for just cruising in a high gear? If I had to try and answer this question myself I find myself keeping the rpm's between 1500-1800 in the highest gear I feel comfortable in.
1500-1800 is what I like. Most people prefer a range significantly north of that.
Being in one gear too high approach (where you would downshift one gear for power or if the road opens up) or just staying modulating the the throttle in one gear lower? I typically feel like I straddle both.
I tend to prefer cruising in the tallest gear that won't make the engine complain, and needing to downshift for anything more than very mild acceleration. However, it certainly is situational. In heavy/hyper traffic or if I'm hurried (or whatever else) I'll choose a gear lower (or even two). I do the same in an automatic. Despite their fast downshifts there's nothing quite like the jump a vehicle does when cruising at low speed at high RPM. When planning a difficult slingshot pass I'll pre-downshift, and I've been known to put my pickup into 4WD or even 4LO and 1st so I can be ready to explode out of a near-stopped lane in a traffic jam.
And one last personal question to the cow: What ever happened to the fate of the Rabbit?
It was a lease and, despite is humble price, a new car just wasn't realistic with my financial condition. When the lease was over I let them have the car back. Also I had my project car that I couldn't allow to continue rotting in my yard any longer. I've been driving it (very happily) for over 5 years now. Now when I have complaints about my car I don't have to be bitter about the jerks I'm repeatedly paying for it...I can just blame myself and go on with life (or get off my lazy ass and fix/modify it).
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by IMBoring25 »

Every manual I've driven has had the pedals set up with the gas considerably deeper than the brake, I would assume with the assumption that any heel-and-toeing would be done heavily on the brake. Since that's never the regime in which I operate, the heel-on-brake variation is the adaptation I have developed as well.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork »

Rope-Pusher thanks for the narration of the story w/ pictures- it's pretty much spot on. It does make sense to continue avoiding it for now since I want to at least know I can take a turn with poise and grace successfully before possibly getting killed in front of my work place and dishonoring myself and my family. :D
You know, I'm not surprised. That's the sort of thing VW does, make a substantially excellent car and then take a few simple things and (often inexplicably) ruin them, marring an otherwise excellent driving experience. With the less-normal way my ankles bend I could probably do it in that car though, that sounds like a comfortable position for me, heel on the brake up high and toe ballerina'd down deep into the accelerator pedal.
Agreed 100%. I'm not a VW fan boy and this is my first Germ-exican car I've ever owned and it definitely has a lot of character and qwirks to it. I don't even advertise myself as a fan of VW to the public (don't feel like getting spit on by dieselgate) but this is probably the best driving car I've ever owned. On an unrelated note I am coming from a pedigree of Japanese and Korean vehicles exclusively and this car out of the box feels much more refined and better built on a structural "feel" stand point. On the related note of a quiet cruiser on the highway, I love the way this suspension is set up out of the box in this car- and I also am finally back into an IRS rear set up which is night and day differences in New York. With all of this being said though I've already have had my car into the service center for AC compressor problems which I pretty much never experienced even in over 90k miles in my Corolla.

In terms of my feeble attempts of heel toeing... I take the approach of going foot arch on the brake and top shoe/toe on the throttle. This approach most likely makes it more difficult from what I've described in characteristics of a sensitive brake pedal/not sensitive enough throttle. Going with my heel on the throttle/toeing the brake might give me more support on controlling the throttle and less pressure on the brake but I've honestly haven't taken out the time to really try and get better at it. I feel like it's an advanced technique and to my understanding there have been seasoned drivers for over years who still don't do it/aren't great at it. Could it definitely help me in a lot of the instances I've written out though in these posts? Sure sounds like it though.
Don't get me wrong...if it's doing some of that stuff, complaining and juddering and bucking and so forth, you want to do something about it. Don't keep torturing it when it tells you something's wrong. Just don't panic, don't worry that you've hurt it, and don't worry that it will stall.
I know this will make you cringe especially but my view point on how the clutch worked within the first few months was in theory of an on/off light switch. I viewed it as something you had to be on and off of and because a lot of newbies (and a lot of posts around here) are concerned with pre-mature clutch wear/transmission damage/drive line damage I wanted to get off the clutch as quick as possible. Things that I had to learn from trial and error over time was that the clutch was an analog device and that I had to be linear and progressive with it. A new way I adopted viewing it was more like a pendulum balance between the pedals in the footwell. It really helped me shake off a lot of starter notions but the idea I still don't quite grasp is when the car is in a said gear and you bring it back to the friction point- it means that I'm halfway in and out slipping? I think I panic at slower speeds because if I don't understand the theory of why I'm doing something, I question what I'm doing (therefore slowing myself down)... but with all the explanations I feel like I am going into parking lots more confident in what needs to be done (not confusing it for experience though).
That's pretty common when new. Although I didn't chase the ever-so-popular smoothness dragon (I can do smooth when I want to, but I never want to), I did chase (and achieve) other types of perfection. My current car is so sloppy that no amount of driver perfection can produce perfect results anyway...
I had pretty unique test drives given my circumstances. The last three cars I was between were pretty much the usual suspects in this price range: A) Ford Focus ST, B) Subaru WRX, C) VW GTI. What I essentially did was I had the salesman (or a service tech) drive me around half way the test drive route and I'd take a simple straight line back to the dealership to get "some feel" myself. I wanted to experience the car in the hands of someone who had great experience in operating a manual while feeling it for myself as well. I felt like my test drive experiences were excellent with the Ford Focus ST and VW GTI and that both of those cars could handle a jekyll and hyde (smooth and sporting). The ford service tech who was just a kid getting paid probably near minimum wage loved the opportunity to do so and sold me on the driving experience when he had no reason to be biased. His personal car was an Evo IX and he compared the Focus ST on a favorable scale and said that the suspension and ride itself was much more sophisticated. The Subaru WRX experience was weird- for one I had to sign a waiver before test driving the car (which made me admittedly nervous) and I felt that the gear box, rev hang, and throttle made for one of the toughest cars to drive. The gear box had the longest throws noticeably and it felt like I was rowing a rudder through sand. The rev hang up shifting through the first 3-4 gears was the worse of the 3, and the throttle was the hardest to control (might of been the feeling of AWD or just the way it was tuned).
1500-1800 is what I like. Most people prefer a range significantly north of that.
I quoted those numbers because it's what I do. I questioned it because another guy on the VW forums asked what range and he said he literally keeps the car at 1100-1200 (some cold starts the engine idles around 1100) and there was a huge discussion on it. I feel like 1500-1600 gives me a good opportunity to get down a gear if needby or enough "head room" to accelerate in the gear if needed.
It was a lease and, despite is humble price, a new car just wasn't realistic with my financial condition. When the lease was over I let them have the car back. Also I had my project car that I couldn't allow to continue rotting in my yard any longer. I've been driving it (very happily) for over 5 years now. Now when I have complaints about my car I don't have to be bitter about the jerks I'm repeatedly paying for it...I can just blame myself and go on with life (or get off my lazy ass and fix/modify it).
Makes sense and I can respect that. My nightmare expectation response is for you to tell me that the car had a catastrophic failure and committed suicide. I've always been really close to buying a Volkswagen and a Mazda but I always find something that suits me better for the time or get scared away from the; A) reliability woes of VW, B) the rusty deaths of Mazdas in the north east. I am absolutely not going into the relationship with VW with great confidence but at the same time I am hopeful and I am protected. I was able to talk the sales guy into extending Volkswagen Care Bumper-to-bumper for 3 years and I also have Geico mechanical breakdown (recommended by the Audi crowd) for 7 (so 4 on top of VW's provided). I would've never gotten this car otherwise and how great it feels and drives out of the box really fills me up with high hopes. I'm also happy to be back into a hatchback that can carry a small ladder or surfboard.

So to recap and rewrite major things I felt like I learned:
- The relation of speed and gearing when taking a 90 degree turn applies to the result. The point at when I actually re-engage the low gear could be something I've seriously mistaken and overlooked. I started taking the turns with the clutch down, while modulating the brakes before hand, and then re-engaging 2nd gear when all of my wheels are straight. I'm not actually using the throttle up until that point and it allows me to focus on the turn as one solid step, and then focusing on re-engaging with the clutch in the next one. By the time I get to re-engaging 2nd gear at this final point I've also bled off enough speed to make it really easy to smoothly engage.
- I need more experience in parking lots but I am understanding different approaches that can be taken in shuffling between 1st and 2nd.
- I need better control at blipping the throttle for rev matches when skipping gears. It feels inconsistent at times but I'll definitely work on it when skipping from 6th down to 4th. It's such a small and consistent blip going down 1 gear that I feel like I could do it in my sleep though.
- ECU qwirks with rev hang and lack of rev hang and how to handle it. I wish there was a healthy medium or even a way to calibrate how fast/slow they drop. 1st to 2nd I'm looking at my watch and tapping on it... 4th to 5th I can't be fast enough so I have to guide it with the throttle as learned.

I know a lot of these posts are probably tl;dr caliber but I really hope that they help someone and encourages more discussion on any said topics. I understand it's probably insanely frustrating going over the same topics and without seeing/feeling it in person but this forum has been one of my greatest supplemental assistants on the internet.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by theholycow »

Teamwork wrote:better built on a structural "feel" stand point. On the related note of a quiet cruiser on the highway, I love the way this suspension is set up out of the box in this car
I wasn't surprised about the pedals but I would be surprised if VW failed to deliver their trademark excellent taut, smooth suspension that keeps the tires stuck to the road but never jars your spine to crumbled bits.
This approach most likely makes it more difficult from what I've described in characteristics of a sensitive brake pedal/not sensitive enough throttle.
We here at StandardShift like to HT every time it could possibly help a little, but it's often considered a technique most suited to extreme situations where you're shoving the hell out of that brake pedal, using all the traction you have to brake.
I feel like it's an advanced technique and to my understanding there have been seasoned drivers for over years who still don't do it/aren't great at it. Could it definitely help me in a lot of the instances I've written out though in these posts? Sure sounds like it though.
I'd call it more of an optional technique than an advanced one. Certainly it's not easy when you're new, but it doesn't need to be considered some sky-high thing for experts.
I know this will make you cringe especially but my view point on how the clutch worked within the first few months was in theory of an on/off light switch.
That's pretty common. I saw it as analog but continuous; I felt like as long as my clutch foot moved smoothly at a reasonable, steady speed I'd be fine, but in fact there's a whole lot more pausing and speed-changing on that pedal.
the idea I still don't quite grasp is when the car is in a said gear and you bring it back to the friction point- it means that I'm halfway in and out slipping?
So, consider the clutch pedal's travel like this:

- At the bottom, it has completely disengaged the clutch. The pressure plate has pulled away from the clutch disc and taken the pressure from it so that it is not being turned by the flywheel. The clutch disc is free to slide away from the flywheel and might do that, slightly.

- For probably 50-85% of the clutch pedal's travel, it allows the pressure plate to begin to close the gap, but not yet to squeeze the clutch disc against the flywheel.

- Then as the pedal continues to come up, the pressure plate begins to squeeze the clutch disc against the flywheel. At first it's not enough to transmit any meaningful amount of torque or generate any significant amount of heat. Then as the pressure increases, more torque is transmitted, but it's not enough to produce any observable results.

- By now it might be enough pressure to allow road speed affect an un-rev-matched engine. Barely a little more and it's enough to transmit some torque through the wheels. In this range, between enough to push the engine around and enough to push the car around, is where your work lies. You don't just proceed smoothly through this short range; you slow through it or even pause, waiting for everything to synchronize. As the torque gets transmitted through, the engine and wheels begin to catch up to each other; as more time goes by their speed gap continuously reduces until they are in sync. At higher torque levels and higher RPM, this range is wider. At low torque levels, where you drive every day, this range is narrower because the clutch still transmits the same amount of torque but that amount is a larger percentage of what's actually coming through. For a new manual driver it would be nice for this range to be 75% of the pedal's travel. For engineering and maintenance realities, it is necessarily a rather small percentage of clutch pedal travel, especially when you have a powerful engine (or just a clutch made for one) yet you are not using all of that power. I think my Rabbit had the same clutch as the GTI, and the less powerful engine (along with my low-RPM driving) meant an ultra-narrow on-off clutch...just ask any of the other ex 2008 Rabbit drivers here, or any of the people I allowed to drive mine...

- Scarcely a little more than that and it's enough to make the car jerk.

- Then there's 10 to 40% of the travel left in which everything has already synced up but the pressure plate is squeezing the clutch disc increasingly more tightly, far beyond what was necessary for the current RPM.
I had pretty unique test drives given my circumstances.
I did surprisingly well on my test drive. I had dabbled many years before on much, much easier vehicles but never owned one or drove one daily. I was a little rough but didn't stall once. I did mis-shift once...into 3rd at >80MPH. White smoke came out the back. The car ran beautifully for the 45,000 miles that I had it anyway. Anyway, I was quite surprised to find that I had difficulty driving it, hence how I wound up here.
I quoted those numbers because it's what I do. I questioned it because another guy on the VW forums asked what range and he said he literally keeps the car at 1100-1200 (some cold starts the engine idles around 1100) and there was a huge discussion on it.
Wow, maybe the culture is changing...and maybe that 2.0T's off-idle torque is majorly improved. (It is still the 2.0T, right?) The NA 2.5 made sufficient power for me right from idle, which was around 1000RPM, and I got through all the gears by 25mph...then I was cruising in that 1500-1800 range. I started looking for a non-existent 6th by 30mph.
My nightmare expectation response is for you to tell me that the car had a catastrophic failure and committed suicide.
Nah. Listen, it is always popular to worry about reliability and longevity, but one side-effect of that never-ending discussion and worry is that it breeds paranoia like that. Every manufacturer's new car is going to last longer than you'll want to keep it, unless you're the rare breed that keeps it until it rots to dust (as I've done with my truck, the engine from which I hope to transplant to my car when the truck finishes disintegrating out from under it).
B) the rusty deaths of Mazdas in the north east.
Everything rusts to nothing here. Get a good undercoating, keep the undercarriage rinsed all winter, and park on pavement instead of grass/dirt...you'll temporarily stave off the demon rust, but nothing stops it.
I was able to talk the sales guy into extending Volkswagen Care Bumper-to-bumper for 3 years and I also have Geico mechanical breakdown (recommended by the Audi crowd) for 7 (so 4 on top of VW's provided).
Do you actually plan to keep it for 7+ years? You and I don't fit in here.
So to recap and rewrite major things I felt like I learned:
Good recap.
I understand it's probably insanely frustrating going over the same topics and without seeing/feeling it in person but this forum has been one of my greatest supplemental assistants on the internet.
Things are quiet around here, we haven't been doing as much repetition in the past couple of years as we used to...
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork »

Every manual I've driven has had the pedals set up with the gas considerably deeper than the brake, I would assume with the assumption that any heel-and-toeing would be done heavily on the brake. Since that's never the regime in which I operate, the heel-on-brake variation is the adaptation I have developed as well.
I figured this but the gap from up and down seems to bare more significance then any other pedal set up I've seen (which is a low number) but I remember the "professionals" saying the Focus ST set up was MADE for it and when I examined that there was definitely less discrepancies that I see rather then the set up I have now. Not trying to make an excuse not to try and practice but going heel (foot arch) on the brake and top of the shoe (toe) on a size 9.5 Onitsuka tiger (my favorite shoe to drive in casually)- I usually stab the throttle hard enough that the brake pedal bites and pulls me forward negating any benefits that heel and toeing would probably provide.
I wasn't surprised about the pedals but I would be surprised if VW failed to deliver their trademark excellent taut, smooth suspension that keeps the tires stuck to the road but never jars your spine to crumbled bits.
On driving prowls I like the way this car is set up greatly. I was always taught that a "premium ride" is one that has no compromises in comfort or sporting characteristics so I guess this is the first premium ride I've had. If anything, I would say that the suspension set up is biased to comfort (I would've even accepted it being stiffer). To boot, a real limited slip differential that has settings to control how obtrusive and controlling it wants to be when it steps in. Taking turns at fast rates and long spiraling exit ramps- this car disguises FWD to the best it possibly could.
I'd call it more of an optional technique than an advanced one. Certainly it's not easy when you're new, but it doesn't need to be considered some sky-high thing for experts.
Understandable. To rebuttal though what would be considered a "sky-high" technique for experts around here? Will I have finally made it whenever I reach this? :)
That's pretty common. I saw it as analog but continuous; I felt like as long as my clutch foot moved smoothly at a reasonable, steady speed I'd be fine, but in fact there's a whole lot more pausing and speed-changing on that pedal.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) I was past the point of smooth launching advice before I got here but I definitely wish I had keener guidance when I first started. Again, the issue was I had to pretty much learn theory and learn symptoms of doing certain things because I had no one to tell me or observe. I spent long nights in an elementary school parking lot- practicing no gas starts, practicing (and failing) throttle simultaneous starts, and traffic conditions in my mind. I know a lot of people's advice is to get thrown into the fire and just sink or swim but I was kind of eased in while the rest of the state was sleeping. Common core mistakes I made starting off and were trying to trouble shoot was I didn't realize I needed to "ride the clutch" to a degree and be progressive with the throttle input in order to not buck like a bronco. What I was originally doing was just setting the gas and getting off the clutch (lifting off) as quickly as I possibly could but I really refined my movements.
- For probably 50-85% of the clutch pedal's travel, it allows the pressure plate to begin to close the gap, but not yet to squeeze the clutch disc against the flywheel.

- Then as the pedal continues to come up, the pressure plate begins to squeeze the clutch disc against the flywheel. At first it's not enough to transmit any meaningful amount of torque or generate any significant amount of heat. Then as the pressure increases, more torque is transmitted, but it's not enough to produce any observable results.
This is all great for me imagining a diagram as I do the motion. Thank you so much.
- By now it might be enough pressure to allow road speed affect an un-rev-matched engine. Barely a little more and it's enough to transmit some torque through the wheels. In this range, between enough to push the engine around and enough to push the car around, is where your work lies. You don't just proceed smoothly through this short range; you slow through it or even pause, waiting for everything to synchronize. As the torque gets transmitted through, the engine and wheels begin to catch up to each other; as more time goes by their speed gap continuously reduces until they are in sync. At higher torque levels and higher RPM, this range is wider. At low torque levels, where you drive every day, this range is narrower because the clutch still transmits the same amount of torque but that amount is a larger percentage of what's actually coming through. For a new manual driver it would be nice for this range to be 75% of the pedal's travel. For engineering and maintenance realities, it is necessarily a rather small percentage of clutch pedal travel, especially when you have a powerful engine (or just a clutch made for one) yet you are not using all of that power. I think my Rabbit had the same clutch as the GTI, and the less powerful engine (along with my low-RPM driving) meant an ultra-narrow on-off clutch...just ask any of the other ex 2008 Rabbit drivers here, or any of the people I allowed to drive mine...
I'm not sure if it's the same case for same clutch between Golf and Golf GTI for MK7 but interesting nonetheless. Plenty of clutch complaints coming from people who have these cars in terms of "dead pedal travel" and "feel" (there is none). The friction point is pretty high up (lifting up) in the pedals travel and there's literally a significant thresh hold where nothing happens (I don't know how to describe it any clearer). I've heard of people with years of manual experience under their belt having a tough few days initially with stalling this car. I'm not so much for modifying my vehicles but two popular modifications on this car for the manual transmission is: A) installing a clutch stop in the firewall and B) installing a clutch bleeder block.

A) For the clutch stop there's really no science going on behind this. It has a bunch of hard foamy rings that stop the clutch from going all the way to the ground (firewall) while still allowing enough space to to disengage the clutch completely from the flywheel. It cuts noticeable inches out of the "dead pedal travel" - from my understanding people have been doing this to every generation of the Golf for awhile now.

B) I'm no expert but apparently there's a plastic restrictor that dampens "clutch engagement" from the factory. This replaces that part and makes it more free flowing so the clutch has better "feel" and faster/firmer engagements. That is the explanation I have received but I am kind of hesitant about doing either of these modifications while still within a warranty zone.
I did surprisingly well on my test drive. I had dabbled many years before on much, much easier vehicles but never owned one or drove one daily. I was a little rough but didn't stall once. I did mis-shift once...into 3rd at >80MPH. White smoke came out the back. The car ran beautifully for the 45,000 miles that I had it anyway. Anyway, I was quite surprised to find that I had difficulty driving it, hence how I wound up here.
The Ford Focus ST test drive and VW GTI test drive were definitely memorable test drives that I will probably remember to the day I leave earth. I think circumstances and politics really made me jaded about the WRX before I even had the chance and the salesman admittedly wasn't very good at operating stick shift (he even stalled in the middle of traffic with me in the car). I didn't really like the idea Subaru (multiple dealerships too) acted like I was test driving a Porsche 911- and that I needed to have negotiated a number and sign a waiver before I even had seat time. The Ford Focus ST test drive was unique because the salesman was really easy going, he didn't know how to drive stick either and just got a random service kid to come along with us. The kid was just as excited as I was to do this and the salesman encouraged to really wring on that thing (this is why I wouldn't buy a car off the lot LOL). Ford got two critical things wrong for me and maybe tankinbeans could fight me on this: A) I thought the spec packaging was much better then the GTI but I knew in my heart the Recaro seats were going to be a love and loathe relationship for daily driving. If that option was a la carte I am 90% sure I would've bought this car. B) Hated the torque steer and wheel hop "bang" in 1st gear. I wonder if having a physical LSD could make this great car even better? The pro's of this car though were it was one of the best values of the 3 in terms of bang for buck and the sounds this thing made out of the box were intoxicating. One of the best 4 cylinder induction notes I think I've ever heard.
Wow, maybe the culture is changing...and maybe that 2.0T's off-idle torque is majorly improved. (It is still the 2.0T, right?) The NA 2.5 made sufficient power for me right from idle, which was around 1000RPM, and I got through all the gears by 25mph...then I was cruising in that 1500-1800 range. I started looking for a non-existent 6th by 30mph.
I don't drive this car the way the other guys do. The fact that guys need to go stage 1 (brings the numbers up to about 262 hp/305ish lb ft torque) within 2000 miles of having this thing astounds me. Yes it is the 2.0T which they've been using in platforms for so long now, the torque band is very linear throughout the rev range. In inclement weather 2nd gear is pretty much useless in the sense if you don't feather the throttle you're just shredding the tires, 1st gear launches require a lot of precision as well or again.. peel out. I personally stay in whatever high gear I'm in as long as I'm essentially below 2k (most of the time being between 1500-1800 rpm).
Do you actually plan to keep it for 7+ years? You and I don't fit in here.
At least 5 years. I usually run things into the ground and that was probably the mentality that was handed down from my parents (they always kept their cars "for good"). I had my 95 Toyota Corolla since I was a junior in high school until I was 1 year out of college. So nearly 8 years and I put on just under 100k on that car. It was still running fine when I ended up trading it in for my lease (KIA gave me 1200) on a car that was 18 years old with almost 190k on the odo. I did it because I wanted to experience something new and I didn't want to drive a car on 13'' steelies anymore with bicycle tires. I know a lot of people say to dump German car's after 4-5 years but I'm going in with low expectations and high hopes.
Things are quiet around here, we haven't been doing as much repetition in the past couple of years as we used to...
That's kind of sad but is it because of the lack of "new" manual drivers in this day and age? I stumbled across these forums on accident through a google search. I did notice that a lot of the stickied threads on tips and tricks re-link me to posts that were done in 2006... I was a high school senior in 2006...

My goal with manual transmission is pretty simple. I just want to be good enough to take on any task at hand and hopefully be able to teach someone today with the guidance and experience I gained a long the way.

EDIT/Update: Was able to allow more seat time and experiment time with taking turns late at night (with very little car on the road). What I've ultimately found and messed with...
- A direct relation of gear, speed, and rpm as spoken about when trying to engage 2nd gear before the turn. Speed is most likely "too high" for jerk free operation when engaging at the speed and at the soonest point before the turn (originally what I was trying to achieve) before I was educated here.
- The jerk itself is most likely in relation to the rpm's dropping to idle and bouncing back up (no rev match) into 2nd gear. I can also confirm this to a degree because I took one turn while guiding the revs up and then engaging 2nd gear and it was jerk free.
- If I don't blip or guide the revs up and just re-engage 2nd gear after the turn is done I've most likely bled off enough speed to smoothly engage 2nd with minimal to no jerk and can really "buckle down" on clutch control without diverting attention to steering inputs or braking inputs (I'm off the brake by this point). What I typically do in order of operations which I'd like some reassurance on is I put the clutch down before the turn and move the gear lever to 2nd gear. I take the turn with the clutch down and focusing on the brake/steering and then start lifting up and feathering out the clutch (rev match optional for now- I'm working on it) and then continue on my merry way. This is what feels natural to me because I was experimenting clutching down after the turn and then re-engaging 2nd promptly at that point (out of the turn) and it felt discombobulated to me. To the guys who made mention of trying to engage the gear after the turn... this was a true revelation to me.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by potownrob »

was going to come back in here and give my 2 cents the other day but forgot to. glad my fellow SS came to OP's rescue (cuz i'm way too tired to answer any questions now :? :cry: :lol: :roll: :) )
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by watkins »

Novels. Novels everywhere...
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork »

potownrob wrote:was going to come back in here and give my 2 cents the other day but forgot to. glad my fellow SS came to OP's rescue (cuz i'm way too tired to answer any questions now :? :cry: :lol: :roll: :) )
Feel free to chime in boys! Don't need the novel responses but definitely embrace and enjoy them. If Cow ever comes through to Long Island I'll have to take him out to dinner this point (and first try and go up that tricky work parking lot hill crawl). :)
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Rope-Pusher »

I hope you don't get hungry early, bacause you may have to wait until the cows come home before you can treat him to a "thanky kinely" meal.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by theholycow »

Teamwork wrote:Understandable. To rebuttal though what would be considered a "sky-high" technique for experts around here? Will I have finally made it whenever I reach this? :)
Good question. I can't think of one right now. I can't think of anything crazy difficult that requires some kind of expert. A nice DCHT downshift is about as technical of a feat as I can think of and is within reach of anybody who feels like practicing and has a modicum of muscle coordination.
I'm not sure if it's the same case for same clutch between Golf and Golf GTI for MK7 but interesting nonetheless. Plenty of clutch complaints coming from people who have these cars in terms of "dead pedal travel" and "feel" (there is none). The friction point is pretty high up (lifting up) in the pedals travel and there's literally a significant thresh hold where nothing happens (I don't know how to describe it any clearer). I've heard of people with years of manual experience under their belt having a tough few days initially with stalling this car.
Yup, that's how it was with the Rabbit. People who drove manual all their lives would take it for a spin and struggle not to stall it. The clutch felt like a video game clutch that's not hooked up to anything and barely has a spring pushing it back up; it was unable to push my leg back up if I merely relaxed, I actually had to pull my leg up. Most of the travel was dead, then a tiny little friction zone, then some more dead travel.
A) For the clutch stop there's really no science going on behind this. It has a bunch of hard foamy rings that stop the clutch from going all the way to the ground (firewall) while still allowing enough space to to disengage the clutch completely from the flywheel. It cuts noticeable inches out of the "dead pedal travel" - from my understanding people have been doing this to every generation of the Golf for awhile now.
I wanted to do that but I was too chicken to risk not fully declutching.
B) I'm no expert but apparently there's a plastic restrictor that dampens "clutch engagement" from the factory. This replaces that part and makes it more free flowing so the clutch has better "feel" and faster/firmer engagements.
Clutch Delay Valve...it slows the movement of hydraulic fluid so that if your foot comes up too fast the clutch still takes its time engaging. Sounds dreadful. I would hate that so much, it's basically like rev hang, you could call it clutch hang. I want to be in charge. It's manual, let me control it manually.
- The jerk itself is most likely in relation to the rpm's dropping to idle and bouncing back up (no rev match) into 2nd gear. I can also confirm this to a degree because I took one turn while guiding the revs up and then engaging 2nd gear and it was jerk free.
Whenever you do something with the accelerator pedal that makes your shift more smooth, you've done a good thing, whatever it is you did. Practice that.
What I typically do in order of operations which I'd like some reassurance on is I put the clutch down before the turn and move the gear lever to 2nd gear. I take the turn with the clutch down and focusing on the brake/steering and then start lifting up and feathering out the clutch (rev match optional for now- I'm working on it) and then continue on my merry way. This is what feels natural to me because I was experimenting clutching down after the turn and then re-engaging 2nd promptly at that point (out of the turn) and it felt discombobulated to me.
That's fine. If that works for you, enjoy it.
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