Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

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potownrob
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by potownrob »

Teamwork wrote:
potownrob wrote:was going to come back in here and give my 2 cents the other day but forgot to. glad my fellow SS came to OP's rescue (cuz i'm way too tired to answer any questions now :? :cry: :lol: :roll: :) )
Feel free to chime in boys! Don't need the novel responses but definitely embrace and enjoy them. If Cow ever comes through to Long Island I'll have to take him out to dinner this point (and first try and go up that tricky work parking lot hill crawl). :)
darn, now i wish i had contributed. i live in dutchess county and enjoy taking trips to LI. :cry:
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork »

potownrob wrote:
Teamwork wrote:
potownrob wrote:was going to come back in here and give my 2 cents the other day but forgot to. glad my fellow SS came to OP's rescue (cuz i'm way too tired to answer any questions now :? :cry: :lol: :roll: :) )
Feel free to chime in boys! Don't need the novel responses but definitely embrace and enjoy them. If Cow ever comes through to Long Island I'll have to take him out to dinner this point (and first try and go up that tricky work parking lot hill crawl). :)
darn, now i wish i had contributed. i live in dutchess county and enjoy taking trips to LI. :cry:
Lol, not too late... though I feel like given the advice provided by tankinbeans, Imboring, and Cow I've progressed mentally, and approach wise to a lot of the presented scenarios. I know a lot of the advantage of operating a manual transmission is the diversity of options and different ways people do things though. I definitely like trying out new things to see what suits me best because in a way I can only "self teach" myself so far.
Yup, that's how it was with the Rabbit. People who drove manual all their lives would take it for a spin and struggle not to stall it. The clutch felt like a video game clutch that's not hooked up to anything and barely has a spring pushing it back up; it was unable to push my leg back up if I merely relaxed, I actually had to pull my leg up. Most of the travel was dead, then a tiny little friction zone, then some more dead travel.
Agreed spot on. A ton of dead pedal travel to the friction point with more dead travel before lifting it up all the way. Clutch devoid of feeling and it's extremely light. My longest stint is a 70 mile round trip out east to the island and back home. There is a mix of driving of highway and around town (heavy traffic light... heavy traffic) driving. Going round trip I probably put down and lift up that clutch over 50 times- I never feel physical fatigue in doing so. The thing is my muscle memory is judging distances to and out of the friction point and it's not based on feel really at all.
I wanted to do that but I was too chicken to risk not fully declutching.
Clutch Delay Valve...it slows the movement of hydraulic fluid so that if your foot comes up too fast the clutch still takes its time engaging. Sounds dreadful. I would hate that so much, it's basically like rev hang, you could call it clutch hang. I want to be in charge. It's manual, let me control it manually.
Sadly from the last above line I'm kind of worried about trying out either of these mods. Anything that's going to mess with my "routine" and memory is definitely going to throw me out of the loop. The clutch stop is extremely cheap- a $9 dollar mod and a lot of the VW guys swears by it. No negative repercussions- no grinding of the gears, no trouble starting up. The clutch delay valve doesn't really make any sense to me why/how it's supposed to making the driving experience better? Especially in a car with sporting pretensions what is the point (advantage) of this thing?
Whenever you do something with the accelerator pedal that makes your shift more smooth, you've done a good thing, whatever it is you did. Practice that.
It was kind of on accident and it wasn't a stabby, stab, blip. I unconsciously was guiding up the throttle thinking I already put it into 2nd gear getting out of the turn and I put it into 2nd and matched revs perfectly. Problem is I was trying to practice blipping (with a stab of the throttle) tonight and I would keep over reving by a few hundred and it would jerk me going forward (definitely pushing me forward). Something in my brain kind of throws me out of loop when I'm braking down for the turn, I blip the throttle, and then carry on with the gas. When I was essentially not matching revs and smoothly focusing on engaging 2nd gear before or after the turn I was able to do better and smoother with my order of operations and executing them.

So I guess the big question here is by not rev-matching with a blip and gently feathering the clutch into 2nd gear (bringing it back up to 1200-1400 rpm) going to be healthy in the short/long term for my clutch/transmission or should I seriously try and make strides with blipping and even practicing in a serious manner heel and toeing? If it's a comparison (pissing match) of which jerk is worse me over-reving the blip re-engaging 2nd or the original "pop jerk" on a butt feel aspect I could easily say it's the over-reving but if you guys feel it will benefit me as a driver to work on it- I surely can/will.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by potownrob »

Teamwork wrote:
potownrob wrote:
Teamwork wrote: Feel free to chime in boys! Don't need the novel responses but definitely embrace and enjoy them. If Cow ever comes through to Long Island I'll have to take him out to dinner this point (and first try and go up that tricky work parking lot hill crawl). :)
darn, now i wish i had contributed. i live in dutchess county and enjoy taking trips to LI. :cry:
Lol, not too late... though I feel like given the advice provided by tankinbeans, Imboring, and Cow I've progressed mentally, and approach wise to a lot of the presented scenarios. I know a lot of the advantage of operating a manual transmission is the diversity of options and different ways people do things though. I definitely like trying out new things to see what suits me best because in a way I can only "self teach" myself so far.
unfortunately, it is too late. this week is apparently all about lack of sleep, and it takes a lot of energy (at least for me) to answer people's questions about this shifting stuff. i commend the other SS who took the time and physical and mental energy to answer your questions. to be honest, they did so well i couldn't read most of their responses. :shock: :? :lol: :oops: 8)
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by IMBoring25 »

CDV isn't supposed to make the driving experience better. It's supposed to lower their warranty claims.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by theholycow »

Teamwork wrote:Going round trip I probably put down and lift up that clutch over 50 times- I never feel physical fatigue in doing so.
Well that's an improvement of the Rabbit clutch, then. Constantly having to lift my leg in that particular direction because the pedal doesn't push back was like an eternity of physical therapy.
The thing is my muscle memory is judging distances to and out of the friction point and it's not based on feel really at all.
Yup. It's a combination of that and processing non-foot-related stimuli - visual measurement of movement, inertial sensation, audible input from the engine (does the GTI still have that silly noise pipe, or have they replaced it with even more silly imitation noise piped through the speakers?), and of course (if an extra eyeball is available) a look at the tachometer.
The clutch delay valve doesn't really make any sense to me why/how it's supposed to making the driving experience better? Especially in a car with sporting pretensions what is the point (advantage) of this thing?
They also offer an automated transmission...that doesn't make the driving experience better either. Both are arguable with essentially the same argument.
So I guess the big question here is by not rev-matching with a blip and gently feathering the clutch into 2nd gear (bringing it back up to 1200-1400 rpm) going to be healthy in the short/long term for my clutch/transmission or should I seriously try and make strides with blipping and even practicing in a serious manner heel and toeing? If it's a comparison (pissing match) of which jerk is worse me over-reving the blip re-engaging 2nd or the original "pop jerk" on a butt feel aspect I could easily say it's the over-reving but if you guys feel it will benefit me as a driver to work on it- I surely can/will.
I can't be sure through a computer screen which is worse, but I can promise you that learning and refining more techniques will absolutely benefit you.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork »

Well that's an improvement of the Rabbit clutch, then. Constantly having to lift my leg in that particular direction because the pedal doesn't push back was like an eternity of physical therapy.]
It's definitely fairly light, being relative to what I was comparing it too. The WRX was noticeably heavy in operation and the ST I would've described as 'light but firm'. The absolute worst aspect of it for me is the length of the throw. I'm not too sure how long is considered long, but I feel like I'm putting my heel and ankle into the engine bay. Not too sure (again being a novice) if there is an advantage of having a long throw for the clutch travel with a ton of dead pedal travel and a small friction point. I've been reading back to older threads in my free time here so I can try not being so redundant on the topics and it seems like most people here (most people back in 2007) were against clutch stops. A lot of guys who have a lineage of VW/AUDI/BMW seem to look at the mod as the type of thing you do day 1 and never look back.
Yup. It's a combination of that and processing non-foot-related stimuli - visual measurement of movement, inertial sensation, audible input from the engine (does the GTI still have that silly noise pipe, or have they replaced it with even more silly imitation noise piped through the speakers?), and of course (if an extra eyeball is available) a look at the tachometer.
Yep and yep- the soundaktor. I am in the minority of the MK7 club formed opinion- I actually enjoy it but it does seem really corny. Switching drive modes changes the volume input on this thing from 50% (normal) to 100% (sport). It's extremely noticeable because it doesn't even sound like the same car in the two modes. I've never looked at my feet while launching or operating but I do commonly keep a keen eye on the tachometer. I watch specifically what happens when launching from a complete stop in 1st: I look at where I set my revs and how much they drop if I'm not compensating with more gas properly. That was a huge sticking point for me months back is I would set the throttle to a certain rpms and never progress on that amount (I would just hold it) and then I would realize via tach that if I'm progressive with the rpm's after setting it that it would make for a smoother launch.

I'm not sure if I go on the throttle or clutch to the friction point first but I'd say I do it simultaneously with a small head start with the gas.
They also offer an automated transmission...that doesn't make the driving experience better either. Both are arguable with essentially the same argument.
I just didn't really understand how it worked or what the advantage of it would be on a consumer/business/driving stand point.
I can't be sure through a computer screen which is worse, but I can promise you that learning and refining more techniques will absolutely benefit you.
Valid. I can tell you that I feel like I've learned so much here in different approaches already. I mis-read IMBoring post before when he said to try re-engaging 2nd after the turn. He disclaimer'ed that it wasn't the best past a beginner technique so I kind of want to move away from that. I know that I can do it, and I've done it now- so I can still use it in a pinch. I wish tankinbeans would come back and fight me on some ST things, but I can't really grasp what he said about getting into a lower gear right when he was in the turning lane. My body and mind for whatever reason just wants to do it as I'm feet away from going into the turn (so right before it). Something in the order of the operations feels unnatural to me but I've gotten to the point where I could blip right before and slide right into 2nd. When I do it REALLY well I am astonished that it's so smooth, easy, and jerk free. A lot of time's still I feel like my footwell is a mess.. I guess it's the blipping aspect because I just went from brakes, throttle, back off the throttle, and back (steady) onto throttle (by now I'm in the gear).

Thanks again everybody and cow.
Last edited by Teamwork on Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by tankinbeans »

ST clutch is definitely communicative and very forgiving. One suggestion for you regarding clutch action is to sit a little closer than you normally would so you can smash it without dislocation of the leg shoulders.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Rope-Pusher »

tankinbeans wrote: Image
One suggestion for you regarding clutch action is to sit a little closer than you normally would so you can smash it without dislocation of the leg shoulders.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork »

tankinbeans wrote:ST clutch is definitely communicative and very forgiving. One suggestion for you regarding clutch action is to sit a little closer than you normally would so you can smash it without dislocation of the leg shoulders.
What constitutes a clutch being regarded as forgiving- is it a direct relation to the friction point being a wider thresh hold? I wish I could remember it personally better and I remember it impressing me but those seats just weren't for me. I remember that car impressing my dad who has a wider variety of vehicle history then me and has pretty much totally written off Ford after his two worst vehicles ever owned were a 1990 Taurus Wagon and a 1992 Ford Tempo. I'm hoping it stays around for multiple generations it's kind of a hard sell and fairly niche. They were basically giving them away also in my experience- they were basically asking for 24.5k for an ST2 packaged car with the yellow tangerine scream (which I think was an extra cost color). I think that's like 4-5k incentive discounting.

I sit pretty close to the front dashboard. I don't know if anyone could critique me since I've never set up my seating position for 3 pedals but this was the method I did. For in relation to the foot well I put the highest priority on the clutch going in and out- when the clutch is all the way down to the floor, very slight bend to my knee (i'm not really toeing my foot on the pedal but I'm not flat footed either). The steering wheel is then adjusted telescopically so with my back/lats pressed to the back of the seat I can rest my wrists on the top of the steering wheel (full extension)- and with a 90 degree bend in my elbows at the 9 and 3 spots. I naturally keep my seat as low as it goes in the tract for height (I feel like that's a preference thing). I'm not disproportionate but pretty average at 5'9 and 145 lbs but with the way this seat is set I'd say that I'm as far away as I can be for the clutch travel but I am pretty damn close to the brake/throttle.

I was reading another post from Cow from 2014:
Feels like it's not hooked up to anything. Completely numb.

Resistance is like the spring from a retractable pen, like a stiff breeze could press it to the floor.

Engagement/friction isn't a zone, it's a point; it's an on-off switch, but it's located somewhere near the top of the range (but not all the way at the top).

Someone who is learning will slowly bring the pedal up, nothing happens. They slowly bring it up more, still nothing happens. They slowly bring it up more if they still have any patience, still nothing happens. They're almost at the top and they bring it up another millimeter and suddenly the car has stalled. Next time they try to remember where it was but there's no reference, there's no changes in pressure, no feedback, nothing.
That spot on sounds like he's already driven my car to a tee. My original approach to normal driving was to do the no-gas method but I found it difficult to do for pretty much all of the variables listed above. As a newbie I was slow on my release still trying to "feel" out the biting point but I'd essentially go slow for half the travel (in the dead travel of nothingness) and I'd unconsciously speed up searching for it and go past the small friction point. I think I naturally set the throttle before/simultaneous because the car would basically make it known that it was moving and catching better rather then slowly inching up with no gas.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by AHTOXA »

I love how this thread is filled with well-thought out, informative and easily-digestible post content. Seriously.

I probably wouldn't come back here due to how slow it's been, if it weren't for informative stuff like this. Even though I don't personally need this info, it's still cool to read.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by potownrob »

I like pizza
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Rope-Pusher »

potownrob wrote:I like pizza
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That Pizza don't luv you like it luvs me!
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by theholycow »

+1 on the pizza.

+1 on the seating position too, but it sounds like you've got that licked...so lick some pizza too.

Re-reading the quoted material from my 2014 post and your thoughts on it, and with the clutch down-stop mod fresh in my mind, I wonder if a sort of training wheels thing could be made, perhaps a little noisemaker (maybe a design like baseball cards in bicycle spokes) set around where friction starts to kick in, or a switch that turns off/on a LED.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork »

It's Friday so Buffalo chicken pizza here... for the incoming blizzard too.

I really shouldn't give the clutch as much flack as I do because at this point I've muscled memorized it. The beginning days... weeks... month- I really wish I had these forums to reference and could've read a post like yours in 2014 in how "beginner unfriendly" your rabbit was. I'm not afraid of a challenge but I felt like I awfully related a lot of mistakes I made and referenced them to how we both feel (lack thereof) about the clutch. Literally what you said could be said the same about the way I felt about my clutch and it humbled me like no other. I do like the light nature of it though because when I have to do long stints with mixed driving it makes the application usage very seamless. I've never driven this car yet and had any fatigue (other then mental when I was really new) in my left leg or back or anything.
I love how this thread is filled with well-thought out, informative and easily-digestible post content. Seriously.

I probably wouldn't come back here due to how slow it's been, if it weren't for informative stuff like this. Even though I don't personally need this info, it's still cool to read.
I really try and explain myself thoroughly and thoughtfully if I'm asking for help on the internet- and I appreciate when the favor is repaid (which it has). I was re-reading a lot of older threads and honestly some of the guys asking were soul searching for miracle answers with very little to work with. Yes, I over worry about other things in life as well and it's kind of in my nature but I definitely wanted to stress the details to make the pictures vivid.

I've really started cracking down on the 90 degree turn order of operations. I've progressed in the sense that I feel like I can get the blip and make it feel right. It's funny because when I match the rev's perfectly I'm kind of grinding my teeth waiting for it to jerk me but it's at the point where I do it so quick and smooth that I'm not even ready to accelerate out of the turn. It's really great... from time to time I still don't feel like I have enough time or wherewithal to blip and match the revs but I just gently feather out the clutch when I feel it's needed to be in that lower gear and take it from there. What I've realized like other things is that a ton of variables go into play and that there isn't always one solution needed or necessary. It's really helped me progress in this a ton.

I hope a thread like this helps someone in the future as well if they come across it.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Ayoussef423 »

Okay. My dad just got a 2015 Dodge Challenger Hellcat, and of course its manual transmission. My dad also has a body shop with lots of junk cars, (just trying to give some insight on my situation). Knowing that the car is stick shift I decided to find a junk car that is also stick to learn. It took me till the end of the day to get the hang of it but i was in a good place. Btw the car i used was a hyundai tiburon, weak in comparison to the Hellcat. Anyways my dad let me drive it after he saw i knew how to. And ive been driving for a couple of days but i have one major problem. I need a few tips on how to put it in 1st gear. With the tiburon i noticed the clutch is soft and easy to put in 1st. But with the hellcat its real hard and i stall out often when putting it in first. And its only first gear i have the problem. I just need a few tips or techniques to help me put it in first with a heavy clutch
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