Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

[theholycow]

The fake out struggle is real. There's only so much you can do about it. Even when the whole thing is second nature to you so your body operates the pedals and shifter automatically, subconsciously, like you and the car together become an automatic transmission...even then it can still be irritating. In the specific example that you cited, extra space in front of you would have helped; you could have waited it out, rolling at idle in 1st, having switched to a no-gas launch once you saw brake lights again, and with a little extra space you might have had enough time to wait out the temporary re-stop.

If vehicle mismatch wasn't an issue with the bloated dark-tinted SUV in front of your compact hatchback (or if alignment allowed) then you could also have looked further ahead than the vehicle directly in front of you. In general, most drivers should look a whole lot further ahead than they do, and that goes doubly so for manual drivers. My focus is way, way out there, far ahead in the distance, with closer things drawing my attention only on-demand, almost as if from peripheral vision.

At red lights I have a cascading primary/secondary focus sequence:

1. First I primarily watch cross-traffic's green/yellow lights; secondary is cross-traffic itself.

2. When their light is stale yellow/turns red I primarily watch for them to stop and secondarily watch my own line of traffic, with minor checks further up the road straight ahead.

4. When they stop I watch my own light and line of traffic, primarily focusing on the light and the leader, secondarily watching the car in front of me, tertiarily checking cross-traffic for red light runners and emergency vehicles, as well as far straight ahead for any issue the leader might find.

5. When the leader goes I primarily split attention approximately evenly between the car in front of me and cross-traffic/oncoming left turners, secondarily watching further up the line for any issues the leader or intermediaries might encounter.

6. When the car in front of me goes I primarily watch oncoming left turners/cross-traffic, secondarily keep a reasonable following distance (longer after everyone clears the light, but shorter at first so everyone can catch the green light if there's a long line), and tertiarily watch far ahead/leader/intermediaries.

7. Once I'm clear of cross traffic lanes and oncoming left turners I resume normal cruising protocol, looking far ahead for what can happen to those in front of me as well as myself, keeping a long following distance, tracking all moving/movable objects (vehicles, people, debris, etc), and watching side roads/sidewalks/etc for entering traffic (of any type).

Of course that's all an approximation as I sit around waiting for the snow to stop so I can get out there and plow/blow it, having not driven in the past 16 hours and getting a snow day off of work. I'm sure I deviate from it, don't obey it perfectly, and forgot to list some things.

[Teamwork]

Haha, I didn't know how to phrase it but "fake out" came to mind. The problem is in NY is there's no patience combined with a collective acceptance of slam gas/slam brakes when needed. I've never personally was like this when driving an automatic I always tried to time out coasting to prevent using the brakes/stopping completely as much as possible. I do the same with the manual and feel like I get rewarded even heavier when it works out. The only time I'll ever downshift when approaching a red light is if I think I could use engine braking + staying in a lower gear because the red light is about to turn or otherwise I'll just come to a stop in a high gear.

When you laid out the steps I pretty much do everything that you've stated. I try and time myself at least 1.5 car length distance before moving to avoid getting faked out as much as possible- most of the time it's a success. I do sometimes do the no gas rolling launch but I guess sometimes my speed is really reaching the upper thresh hold (8-9 mph at this point) or I'm not so gentle on the clutch. A few instances I've had the sub conscious to yield to an upcoming vehicle down a local road where only one car can fit at a time and I'll sub consciously put it into second and it'll be smooth as butter but obviously I need to be quick and mindful in order to do this.

It's funny that you say that about a lifted SUV because most of the time when I falter and get faked out it's a larger vehicle then me. I try and pick and get behind compacts or low sporty vehicles for this reason but obviously it can't always be the case. If I'm on a long main road and I know the guy has erratic driving behaviors with the brake and gas I'll mostly try and get away from him.

On a side note I still get somewhat of anxiety when I'm first in que for a light and I can't see the cross pattern of the light (when the opposite spectrum is turning yellow or red). I know this is debated but I feel like looked down upon but I'm not confident in like a quick second launch and I kind of like building up for it- I'll see the opposite spectrum of traffic turning yellow, I'll put the car into 1st and my foot down and be ready. When I can't see it, I try and predict it but sometimes am holding the clutch down in gear for probably 10-15 seconds... is this something I should get away from? I've read debating pov's that the throwout bearing is more durable then they used to be and another pov is that I'm going to need to replace it prematurely. It's not that I have problems launching my car anymore but I like being a few steps ahead and I don't know how precise or good I would be if I had to quick second draw with the traffic light turning green. I kind of hate being first in que because I can't blame it on anyone else but me.

[theholycow]

It's funny that you say that about a lifted SUV because most of the time when I falter and get faked out it's a larger vehicle then me. I try and pick and get behind compacts or low sporty vehicles for this reason but obviously it can't always be the case.

When I can't see it, I try and predict it but sometimes am holding the clutch down in gear for probably 10-15 seconds... is this something I should get away from?

It's bad to sit outside Walmart for a half hour idling and standing on the clutch pedal while your wife goes in to return a used item without a receipt. It's slightly sloppy to stand on it immediately after arriving at a fresh red light that you know is a long one. It's normal, expected, and harmless to step on it for 30 seconds waiting for the green light because you couldn't see the reflection of the other light in a store window and you don't want to hold up traffic. You're not going to hurt anything.

Again, anecdotal data from my hackmobile supports relaxing about it. I was amazed at how much pressure is on that release bearing at rest. With a mechanical linkage the fork can probably be pulled away far enough that the release bearing doesn't even spin, but with a hydraulic linkage it's under pressure and spinning whenever the engine is running (side-effect of a self-adjusting design). Of course it's under more pressure when declutched, but that doesn't last long compared to all the time.

Anyway, when I put the car together and knew the transmission couldn't possibly last, I decided not to baby any part of the clutch system and the release bearing wasn't spared. Over the course of 5 years and 90,000 miles I spent plenty of time standing on it, and when I started having noise that could be the release bearing I assumed that's what it was. It wasn't. I beat the hell out of that bearing in a hacked system engineered (if I can use that word) with excess pressure for 90,000 miles and it was like new when I replaced it. (The noise turned out to be the input shaft bearing, encouraged by a worn-to-nothing pilot bushing.)

If your leg isn't tired then you have nothing to worry about. Listen to your leg, it's got good timing.

[Teamwork]

Thanks again Cow.

I've gotten great reassurance from you and other professionals in terms of my model directly also. I don't think my leg ever really gets fatigued working this clutch and a professional editorial compared the clutch in this car with the statement - "I've felt more pressure from a burrito". I do understand the point you're trying establish though.

The other thing that's probably grey area that I kind of want to get a firmer understanding on is doing a quick rolling stop from a stop sign. I would disclaimer that I would never do this if it put anyone or myself in immediate danger. Is it usually okay to slip the clutch (for a second or two) in 2nd gear at a low crawl or should I always be going back into 1st? I'm basically doing the "automatic" rolling stop... I've been doing the 2nd gear method from a roll late at night when barely anyone is on the road and I don't notice any immediate symptoms of anything wrong. If this is bad practice is there any good advice for being quick through a succession of stop signs every 10-15 feet for multiple blocks?

[theholycow]

I know that ultra-light clutch. Still, holding your leg extended like that can get a little tiring. But yeah, listen for mild fatigue not screaming lactic acid.

From almost a stop, the rolling 2nd launch is the standard recommendation, though with your car it might be easy enough to choose 1st instead. Do whichever you like better.

[IMBoring25]

I hope that's an exaggeration. If they're really every 10-15 feet (or even close), there's not a lot of reason to ever go into second. The engine will make a little more noise but it may actually save gas to stay in first rather than let the engine struggle to pull the car up from a near-stop.

[Teamwork]

I know that ultra-light clutch. Still, holding your leg extended like that can get a little tiring. But yeah, listen for mild fatigue not screaming lactic acid.

Now I just want to pick your brain- what constitutes reason why a clutch would feel heavy or light? Does it have to do with the tension in the release spring? What would be a pro or a con of heaving a heavier clutch as opposed to a lighter one? I like the lightness here because on 70-100 mile stints I'm not fatigued.

I hope that's an exaggeration. If they're really every 10-15 feet (or even close), there's not a lot of reason to ever go into second. The engine will make a little more noise but it may actually save gas to stay in first rather than let the engine struggle to pull the car up from a near-stop.

Welcome to New York. I didn't want to make it sound like I was wreckless rolling stop signs all the time (I really only do it late at night- when no one is around) but it gets really tiresome going through a complete stop and 1st gear. It's why I'm asking because a quick route or what I'm doing right now is pretty convenient when I can see 3 stop signs within 40 feet in my line of sight. I will always put in the work though if it's going to cause premature wear in any way, shape, or form. I would get to my 2nd gear thresh hold which is like 8 mph > slip the clutch for literally a second or less > and throttle out before the engine judders.

[tankinbeans]

I'm back. I just got done rereading all the words and see that Teamwork wants to "fight" about me over some ST things. I'm not a fighter, but I'd be happy to discuss anything about Mrs. Frizzle that I can easily articulate and your Mr. Woods.

About the fake-out...avoid being stuck behind people in Toyotas. Seriously, most of them seem incapable of finding the accelerator with a map, GPS and search dog. They're insufferably slow.

Lately I've been practicing the minimization of needless braking on the freeway during rush hour. So far my best score is tapping the brakes 6 times, of which only once was a full stop, in 26 miles. It involved resisting the urge to fill all the space on the motorway and watching for brake lights, also sticking in a somewhat lower gear than might be necessary to use engine (compression) braking. I try not to engage in morse-code braking; it's more entertaining that way.

[theholycow]

Now I just want to pick your brain- what constitutes reason why a clutch would feel heavy or light? Does it have to do with the tension in the release spring?

Like so many other engineering issues it's a compromise of a variety of factors.

The tension in the spring is one. It controls clamping force, which is one variable in the question of how much torque the clutch assembly can transmit. Other variables in torque capacity include mated surface area and friction properties of the mated materials. You can reduce clamping force requirement by using a more grabby material but it will probably wear out faster and/or cost more. You could do it with increased area by increasing diameter but packaging is an issue (where ya gonna put all that stuff?), weight with the larger assembly (notably including flywheel, pressure plate, and bellhousing) will increase, and the increased diameter and mass (notably, the mass being added at the OUTSIDE edge, which makes a huge difference in energy required to accelerate a spinning disc/wheel/etc) demands more of the synchronizers.

Another factor is leverage in the pedal, linkage, etc. The clutch pedal arm is a lever with a lot of mechanical advantage. Making it longer increases the MA. The linkage may act as a lever too, though I think most hydraulic linkages are 1:1. Your car almost certainly has a concentric slave cylinder, so again, probably 1:1. If there's a fork instead then that is another lever with a bunch of MA. Then there's leverage in the clutch cover assembly, where one end of the fingers gets pushed by the release bearing and the other pulls the pressure plate away. Change the MA anywhere and you change the throw requirement (my guess at the term for how far the pedal/driver's foot moves) or clamping force or foot pressure or any/all of the above.

Another factor is just how much you need that release system to move the pressure plate. In a well-engineered precision-machined system with hard materials and very little clutch sandwich spring travel (there's a spring the shape of a Pringle and the diameter of the clutch sandwiched between the two friction surfaces to help provide smooth engagement and a wider friction zone and I don't know the right term for it) it might not need to move much at all. With more of that Pringle spring travel, soft or lame materials, crappy machining, crappy workmanship, or crappy engineering, more travel will be necessary.

What would be a pro or a con of heaving a heavier clutch as opposed to a lighter one? I like the lightness here because on 70-100 mile stints I'm not fatigued.

For the driver, it's a personal preference thing. I get the feeling that most people prefer a lighter clutch.

I have lots of leg strength (at least while pushing) and I am much better at modulating that pedal if it's pretty stiff. Fine control is difficult when I have to hover and hold my foot airborne, much easier when I can merely adjust how hard I'm pushing. Additionally, lifting that same leg often or for a long time takes more effort so having a pedal that can push my leg back up makes me less tired in situations where I'm operating the clutch a lot. I hated the light weight in my VW's clutch pedal.

Have a gander at this thread where we measured force required to depress the clutch pedal in our cars using a 2x4 and a bathroom scale: http://www.standardshift.com/forum/view ... hp?t=19143

[Teamwork]

Welcome back Tankin!

I'm back. I just got done rereading all the words and see that Teamwork wants to "fight" about me over some ST things. I'm not a fighter, but I'd be happy to discuss anything about Mrs. Frizzle that I can easily articulate and your Mr. Woods.

Fight was too strong of a word but I was definitely curious on a pov of some long term ownership of the vehicle and some of the points that I said were deal breakers for me. The recaro seats for me was the number one deal breaker for sure and I feel like it's a hit or miss amongst your guys communities for the car. I honestly believe Ford did a better job packaging this car then VW did (no surprise) for the GTI and what even sweetened the deal was they were "cheap" packages (talking about those weird 502a spec things). The Focus ST for when I was looking at it could've easily been SOLD on price alone... the only other car that I looked at that was selling with as much incentive and dealer rebates was probably the Fiat 500 Abarth (was quoted in writing just below 20k for one). I hated the idea of having to daily in the seats and I don't know if that car is your daily driver but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. The other thing I disliked strongly was the small fuel tank... feel like this is a complaint of most long term reviewers. I find it intriguing that they brought over a special sized fuel tank for the US market only and it happens to be smaller then the European spec one.

For the driver, it's a personal preference thing. I get the feeling that most people prefer a lighter clutch.

I have lots of leg strength (at least while pushing) and I am much better at modulating that pedal if it's pretty stiff. Fine control is difficult when I have to hover and hold my foot airborne, much easier when I can merely adjust how hard I'm pushing. Additionally, lifting that same leg often or for a long time takes more effort so having a pedal that can push my leg back up makes me less tired in situations where I'm operating the clutch a lot. I hated the light weight in my VW's clutch pedal.

Have a gander at this thread where we measured force required to depress the clutch pedal in our cars using a 2x4 and a bathroom scale: http://www.standardshift.com/forum/view ... hp?t=19143

I'll definitely take a look at that thread in detail when I have the time. I feel like in my memory though it was hazy that the Focus ST was clutch was more in line with the GTI in terms of lightness but I do remember the WRX one feeling noticeably tougher to floor. I was actually curious when I first got my car how the lightness would hold up over time- like ultimately if it'd get even lighter from being used so often... but so far after 6,000 miles I don't really notice any different characteristics. A lot of people talk about "clutch break in" periods... I'm sure I'm way past that...

[IMBoring25]

It's expensive to design, manufacture, and stock a unique part. It takes a very heavy or very expensive part before you might save enough to overcome the loss in economies of scale. There is likely some piece of equipment required on the U.S.-spec car, probably emissions- or safety-related, that they had to place in a location that interferes with the volume of the original tank.

[theholycow]

I was actually curious when I first got my car how the lightness would hold up over time- like ultimately if it'd get even lighter from being used so often... but so far after 6,000 miles I don't really notice any different characteristics.

I wouldn't expect a noticeable or even measurable change.

A lot of people talk about "clutch break in" periods... I'm sure I'm way past that...

I haven't noticed anything with break-in other than smell vs. no smell, but I haven't exactly been through a lot of clutches or had controlled conditions in which to tell.

[tankinbeans]

I have an ST1 so I have the more reasonably contoured cloth seats. No recaros for me, much as I kind of liked them; I can ride in my friend's ST3 if I want to be groped for long pyramids. I haven't driven a GTI yet, not a fan of VWs ever since my friend had his 2011 Jetta that liked to eat parts that were generally not supposed to break (nothing major, but having them replaced at the dealer all the time would get old real fast).

The small fuel tank is a bit of an annoyance, but it's okay since I stop into convenience stores for Surge/Mountain Dew on the regular and don't mind taking an extra 3 minutes to put in petrol. I fill up at half anyway so regardless I'll be in the station frequently.

The clutch is not terribly heavy but there is more feel than the aforementioned Jetta. It's also more predictable than that which was in my Kia was. My current clutch feels identical to my Focus SE, even though the design is somewhat different. The whole setup consists of a dual-mass flywheel (?), dual disk clutch and dual final drives (RP how does that all work?). I do have that hill-start assist whereby witchcraft prevents rolling backward on a hill; need to deactivate and get to a hill so as to practice again without it.

The clutch feeling in my friend's Jetta started getting downright scarifying around 80k miles and served to hide the power on tap.

I have the standard audio system because I want touchscreens as far away from me as possible while motoring. I don't feel like removing my gloves to change a station and yellimg at Mrs. Sync is a pain sometimes (forking Microsoft!).

The only real disappointment is that fuel mileage wasn't quite what expected. I knew it would be lower, but I've had it in the mid-teens (granted this was -14°) and has since rebounded. Overall lifetime average is 26 and change. But for 252(243on 87octane)hp/270torques I'll take it.

Stay boosting my friends.

[Teamwork]

I wouldn't expect a noticeable or even measurable change.

I figured this but wasn't too sure if the feeling would change.

I haven't noticed anything with break-in other than smell vs. no smell, but I haven't exactly been through a lot of clutches or had controlled conditions in which to tell.

Yeah, for like one day only I randomly smelt clutch. It was horrible and pretty much imprinted in my mind. It subsided pretty quickly though... I took a break thinking I destroyed my car.
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Interestingly enough I was able to sit in a pre-owned 2013 ST1. I'm not so much for touch screens and these new infotainment systems but this unit looked incredibly basic and dated. I didn't mind the basic seat though- but I basically wanted everything that ST2 brought minus the damn seats.

If you don't mind me asking what is your trip range from F to E (or even F to 1/2). One of the big complaints of the MK7 is it hoards fuel. People have driven past the "0 miles to empty" for over 20-30 miles until actually running out of gas. If you fill up when the gas light first comes on you'll only put in less then 10 gallons. So this was a huge deal breaker for me and it ended up being within the car I got anyway (but didn't know it would).

I loved the way this car sounded, I liked the steering wheel better, and I liked the way it looked inside and out. I hope they don't screw up next generation.

[tankinbeans]

Here are my numbers for the last 900 or so miles.



I'm a pretty basic person so the stereo suits me. I just wish tiger speakers weren't so disappointing for the times I'm grooving to Celtic Woman or Hayley Westenra. Also sometimes Green Day gets a bit muddy and Disturbed doesn't quite work.