Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

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adamjp
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Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by adamjp »

Hi all,

So I'm new to these forums and relatively new to driving a standard. My Matrix is the first standard I've had and I've taught myself how to drive it over the past year. By now I'm completely fine with upshifting, downshifting and knowing what gear I need to be in.

However, after all of this time owning this car I still am not completely comfortable with launching. It feels inconsistent, sometimes I can do it perfectly and other times I still get that pull-back feeling when clutch engages. I find that when I focus too much on countering that pull-back of rpms I end up over compensating and giving it too much gas. My best launches are normally when I'm not thinking about it. The thing is, not only do I want to make sure I can launch consistently the same all the time, I want to understand technically what I need to be doing to avoid that loss of RPM when the clutch engages.

I find the Matrix has a deep clutch and somewhat vague friction point. This makes it forgiving in some ways, but at the same time really makes it hard for me to pinpoint the exact point in clutch pedal travel that I need to be aware of.

Any tips you can give me would be very helpful. Thanks!
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by tankinbeans »

What all have you tried to even out your launching? Have you tried no-gas launches to become more familiar with the friction point?
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by Teamwork »

adamjp wrote:Hi all,

So I'm new to these forums and relatively new to driving a standard. My Matrix is the first standard I've had and I've taught myself how to drive it over the past year. By now I'm completely fine with upshifting, downshifting and knowing what gear I need to be in.

However, after all of this time owning this car I still am not completely comfortable with launching. It feels inconsistent, sometimes I can do it perfectly and other times I still get that pull-back feeling when clutch engages. I find that when I focus too much on countering that pull-back of rpms I end up over compensating and giving it too much gas. My best launches are normally when I'm not thinking about it. The thing is, not only do I want to make sure I can launch consistently the same all the time, I want to understand technically what I need to be doing to avoid that loss of RPM when the clutch engages.

I find the Matrix has a deep clutch and somewhat vague friction point. This makes it forgiving in some ways, but at the same time really makes it hard for me to pinpoint the exact point in clutch pedal travel that I need to be aware of.

Any tips you can give me would be very helpful. Thanks!
I'm not familiar with the moniker trims for the second generation but is this the FWD/AWD model (maybe the AWD was auto only?). I can relate when you say the best launches are normally when you don't think about it. What is your typical approach when launching though? Do you set the gas before the clutch hits the friction point (this sounds like what you do from other statements). Do you hold it long enough so you don't bog/bounce the launch?

Whenever I usually hit a rough spot of a few launches I always go back to relating that I either don't give it enough gas or I don't hold it into the friction point quite long enough. What I've learned with my car is literally being a second off could really determine on whether my launch is bouncy or fairly "automatic" like smooth. It never fails because I either grow rushed in the process or I grow unconfident because I do feel rushed which makes me rush the process even more. For my car specifically, I usually naturally get into the top of the friction point (it's vague at times), pause while compensating with the gas, and then slowly, progressively, lift off from there.
adamjp
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by adamjp »

tankinbeans wrote:What all have you tried to even out your launching? Have you tried no-gas launches to become more familiar with the friction point?
I have tried no-gas launches which do work but cause the engine to judder and require very slow release of the clutch. At the point when it starts to judder I can give it some gas and get going alright, but that seems like too late to be giving it any gas. If I try and give it gas before the judder starts I get that pull-back. If I give it increasingly more gas to counteract the pull-back, I end giving it too much gas by the time foot comes off the clutch completely and sometimes get wheel spin when the clutch engages entirely.
adamjp
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by adamjp »

Teamwork wrote: I'm not familiar with the moniker trims for the second generation but is this the FWD/AWD model (maybe the AWD was auto only?). I can relate when you say the best launches are normally when you don't think about it. What is your typical approach when launching though? Do you set the gas before the clutch hits the friction point (this sounds like what you do from other statements). Do you hold it long enough so you don't bog/bounce the launch?

Whenever I usually hit a rough spot of a few launches I always go back to relating that I either don't give it enough gas or I don't hold it into the friction point quite long enough. What I've learned with my car is literally being a second off could really determine on whether my launch is bouncy or fairly "automatic" like smooth. It never fails because I either grow rushed in the process or I grow unconfident because I do feel rushed which makes me rush the process even more. For my car specifically, I usually naturally get into the top of the friction point (it's vague at times), pause while compensating with the gas, and then slowly, progressively, lift off from there.
In answer to you, yes I normally start to press down on the gas before I feel the friction point. I can relate very much to your experience, and I do find sometimes that a pause can help. Other times I've given it a very light burst of gas but letting off the gas completely so that I can release the clutch without any judder and then get back on the gas to keep going.
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by Teamwork »

adamjp wrote:
Teamwork wrote: I'm not familiar with the moniker trims for the second generation but is this the FWD/AWD model (maybe the AWD was auto only?). I can relate when you say the best launches are normally when you don't think about it. What is your typical approach when launching though? Do you set the gas before the clutch hits the friction point (this sounds like what you do from other statements). Do you hold it long enough so you don't bog/bounce the launch?

Whenever I usually hit a rough spot of a few launches I always go back to relating that I either don't give it enough gas or I don't hold it into the friction point quite long enough. What I've learned with my car is literally being a second off could really determine on whether my launch is bouncy or fairly "automatic" like smooth. It never fails because I either grow rushed in the process or I grow unconfident because I do feel rushed which makes me rush the process even more. For my car specifically, I usually naturally get into the top of the friction point (it's vague at times), pause while compensating with the gas, and then slowly, progressively, lift off from there.
In answer to you, yes I normally start to press down on the gas before I feel the friction point. I can relate very much to your experience, and I do find sometimes that a pause can help. Other times I've given it a very light burst of gas but letting off the gas completely so that I can release the clutch without any judder and then get back on the gas to keep going.
As a disclaimer that I am new myself I can definitely relate to a lot of what your saying. It's not necessarily that I don't know how to launch and that I stall during them but I'll revert back to hitting what I call rough patches where I lose confidence and really don't know what's wrong with me and then I'll question my techniques. I pretty much set the gas/rpm's simultaneously when lifting the clutch into the friction point. If I had to make a definitive call about it I probably set the gas a fraction of a second before hand (since I actually have to wait for the clutch to get to the right point). I only use no gas launches when I need to make miniscule, nit picking, type of adjustments- such as if I was rolling out of my driveway (it's on a decline), inching up in traffic with discretion, or making a minor adjustment in a parking space. I like you find that I have to be extremely careful and precise or the car judders as well. I guess really thinking about specifics- when I'm engaging first gear with the gas set as soon as I see the rpm's start to drop and the car really start to "take", I just feather into the gas (staying paused for a moment on the friction point) and then gradually lift off the clutch.
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by adamjp »

Teamwork wrote: As a disclaimer that I am new myself I can definitely relate to a lot of what your saying. It's not necessarily that I don't know how to launch and that I stall during them but I'll revert back to hitting what I call rough patches where I lose confidence and really don't know what's wrong with me and then I'll question my techniques. I pretty much set the gas/rpm's simultaneously when lifting the clutch into the friction point. If I had to make a definitive call about it I probably set the gas a fraction of a second before hand (since I actually have to wait for the clutch to get to the right point). I only use no gas launches when I need to make miniscule, nit picking, type of adjustments- such as if I was rolling out of my driveway (it's on a decline), inching up in traffic with discretion, or making a minor adjustment in a parking space. I like you find that I have to be extremely careful and precise or the car judders as well. I guess really thinking about specifics- when I'm engaging first gear with the gas set as soon as I see the rpm's start to drop and the car really start to "take", I just feather into the gas (staying paused for a moment on the friction point) and then gradually lift off the clutch.
Yea I know what you mean by patches of lost confidence, though that has gotten less frequent for me over time so I am improving. I don't have access to another standard vehicle right now, but I am curious to compare different clutches and see how different they are to drive. I've driven before with people driving a standard and they are completely confident in their abilities and yet the ride is horribly jerky. I don't want to be one of those people, there's no reason whatsoever that I shouldn't be able to drive so that it feels to the passenger like an automatic. Not sure if any "tips" will really speed up learning, but I'm still interested in learning the physics at play as I'm technical minded person. I understand the basics of what's happening mechanically, but it'd be really good to get a detailed explanation of how the manual transmission transalates to forces felt by the driver and why certain techniques of handling the clutch and the shifter yield different results in the overall feel of the ride.
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by Teamwork »

adamjp wrote: Yea I know what you mean by patches of lost confidence, though that has gotten less frequent for me over time so I am improving. I don't have access to another standard vehicle right now, but I am curious to compare different clutches and see how different they are to drive. I've driven before with people driving a standard and they are completely confident in their abilities and yet the ride is horribly jerky. I don't want to be one of those people, there's no reason whatsoever that I shouldn't be able to drive so that it feels to the passenger like an automatic. Not sure if any "tips" will really speed up learning, but I'm still interested in learning the physics at play as I'm technical minded person. I understand the basics of what's happening mechanically, but it'd be really good to get a detailed explanation of how the manual transmission transalates to forces felt by the driver and why certain techniques of handling the clutch and the shifter yield different results in the overall feel of the ride.
I'll let someone else whose well educated on this forum to take the wheel on technical explanation but I could tell you naturally that every car "feels" different (after all as it should). You could drive your car flawlessly to a point but get into a Corvette or something and feel like you're going through 1st timer growing pains again. Obviously, having good experience and understanding the theory and ideas makes it so only small adjustments need to be made but they are adjustments nonetheless. Clutch feel varies > size of a friction point varies > gear ratios varies > power varies.

I would say just give it some time. "Tips" can only go so far (even though being a beginner- I loved hearing peoples tips and approaches)- only experience and knowing your car better will smooth things out- and these things take time.
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by potownrob »

adamjp wrote:
Teamwork wrote: As a disclaimer that I am new myself I can definitely relate to a lot of what your saying. It's not necessarily that I don't know how to launch and that I stall during them but I'll revert back to hitting what I call rough patches where I lose confidence and really don't know what's wrong with me and then I'll question my techniques. I pretty much set the gas/rpm's simultaneously when lifting the clutch into the friction point. If I had to make a definitive call about it I probably set the gas a fraction of a second before hand (since I actually have to wait for the clutch to get to the right point). I only use no gas launches when I need to make miniscule, nit picking, type of adjustments- such as if I was rolling out of my driveway (it's on a decline), inching up in traffic with discretion, or making a minor adjustment in a parking space. I like you find that I have to be extremely careful and precise or the car judders as well. I guess really thinking about specifics- when I'm engaging first gear with the gas set as soon as I see the rpm's start to drop and the car really start to "take", I just feather into the gas (staying paused for a moment on the friction point) and then gradually lift off the clutch.
Yea I know what you mean by patches of lost confidence, though that has gotten less frequent for me over time so I am improving. I don't have access to another standard vehicle right now, but I am curious to compare different clutches and see how different they are to drive. I've driven before with people driving a standard and they are completely confident in their abilities and yet the ride is horribly jerky. I don't want to be one of those people, there's no reason whatsoever that I shouldn't be able to drive so that it feels to the passenger like an automatic. Not sure if any "tips" will really speed up learning, but I'm still interested in learning the physics at play as I'm technical minded person. I understand the basics of what's happening mechanically, but it'd be really good to get a detailed explanation of how the manual transmission transalates to forces felt by the driver and why certain techniques of handling the clutch and the shifter yield different results in the overall feel of the ride.
i don't think it is practical to expect your shifts to be as smooth as an automatic, though it is possible to shift like that, possibly even consistently. shifting smoother than those rough shifters is a reasonable goal, but shifting so no one can notice the shifts is unreasonable, in my eyes. also, no-gas launches, as they were suggested in here at least, are not really meant to be used in day-to-day driving; they are an exercise to help you figure out the clutch engagement zone and how the clutch works. once you work on those, you should better understand how to engage the clutch when you do normal launches using gas.
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by theholycow »

potownrob wrote:i don't think it is practical to expect your shifts to be as smooth as an automatic
I don't even think it's desirable, let alone practical. Why be as boring as an automatic? Might as well just drive one, they're easier to find and are exactly that boring without any effort.
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by IMBoring25 »

My general approach is to try to minimize jerk. It's a relevant skill for slick conditions, driving near the limit, or carrying fragile payloads or queasy passengers. I also find the challenge of it appealing.
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by Rope-Pusher »

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I swear by the pause, right as the clutch grabs enough for the vehicle to start rolling. As the relative speed between the flysheel and the clutch starts to drop, the clutch seems to clamp tighter all by itself, like mebbe it's a static friction vs dynamic friction thang. If you rush through that point, you often over-clamp and dip the engine rpm too low or stall it.
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by theholycow »

^What he said. I used to think that if I was just sufficiently slow and steady with my clutch foot then everything's cool and everything's smooth (hey that's smooth), but that's just not the case...it really requires a completely stopped pause in the friction zone while you wait for the clutch to catch up to the flywheel.
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by Reverence »

Rope-Pusher wrote: I swear by the pause, right as the clutch grabs enough for the vehicle to start rolling. As the relative speed between the flysheel and the clutch starts to drop, the clutch seems to clamp tighter all by itself, like mebbe it's a static friction vs dynamic friction thang. If you rush through that point, you often over-clamp and dip the engine rpm too low or stall it.
theholycow wrote:^What he said. I used to think that if I was just sufficiently slow and steady with my clutch foot then everything's cool and everything's smooth (hey that's smooth), but that's just not the case...it really requires a completely stopped pause in the friction zone while you wait for the clutch to catch up to the flywheel.
so is 'See Saw' a myth? or is it that DBW makes it impractical? :D
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Re: Best way to launch a Toyota Matrix 09 XR

Post by theholycow »

Reverence wrote:so is 'See Saw' a myth? or is it that DBW makes it impractical? :D
Neither. See-saw describes the generally simultaneous and opposite direction of movement of feet for visualization purposes. It does not indicate exact movement in detail.
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