Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by AHTOXA »

I think your average large sedan is doomed. I don't really see a point to it and it has no advantages. Minivans and crossovers are more practical for a family. They also get very comparable gas mileage and seat people just as well. Both are also easier to get in and out of. Footprint is the same and people like to sit higher. Price-wise you're also in the same ballpark with a similarly equipped crossover. It drives just as well as a large sedan in terms of road manners.

Leave large sedans for luxury automakers and be done with it.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by IMBoring25 »

To the extent that any of that is true, it's a sign of how little effort most manufacturers put into the segment.

A large sedan SHOULD be more economical and have markedly better driving dynamics than any van or crossover, just by the physics of aerodynamics and CG. A longer/lower/wider sedan should also be a better tow vehicle if the manufacturers didn't have a vested interest in pushing people with towing needs into something that's legally a light truck. There is occasionally some value in an opaque cargo area. Not everyone finds vans and crossovers easier to get into, based on stature and physical challenges.

Had I not needed a truck in the stable, an SS would have been very appealing to me.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by potownrob »

Teamwork wrote: I've been doing my own changes, bought my oil filters in bulk, and even replaced my in cabin filter and nothing has cost really anymore then any other Asian vehicle I ever owned. The one issue I have run into a bit was the windshield wipers- a lot of false information and overall they were probably a bit more money then what I was used to but it wasn't anything outrageous. Buying oil filters in bulk is the way to go if you're going to be frugal about it and in terms of oil well that ranges like any other car. My first change was done with Mobil 1 and cost less then $35 for 5 qt + 1. I pretty much buy everything off of Amazon and fully utilize Prime.
guess i should consider doing the bulk thing, but i am far from organized enough to store the stuff properly and remember where everything is. my garage looks like a hurricane and a tornado or two swept through it. we won't talk about the house. also would never think to order oil through amazon. i have a prime account but use it mainly for other things. i did order dress shirts for the first time on amazon the other day (usually order through kingsize but had to use amazon to get them quicker without paying through the nose for express shipping. also love using zappos for shoes (free next day delivery FTW).
I don't even really feel a "hit" putting in 93 Octane but I genuinely believe and think that this car gets better mileage then my Kia Forte which was an NA 2.4L. I'm averaging after almost 100 fill ups and 2 oil changes now near 30 mpg in the real world. The lowest I ever seen that number drop to is about 22-23 mpg if I am realling wring this car out consistently and doing a lot of short trips. I know people probably put 87 octane in the 2.0TSI but I like the way things are as is.
yeah, these newer TSI engines are very good on gas if you stay out of boost a lot. i've been averaging over 30 mpg per the car computer lately, other than when my dad and stepmom came up during the heatwave a couple of weeks back. 4 people in the car with a/c
blasting on the 4th fan speed doesn't help mpgs. think i averaged about 26 that week with mostly highway driving. i've tried higher octane, but unless i use 92/93, using 89 doesn't seem to help.
I don't see myself falling out of manual by heart in the immediate future but I do see myself falling out of manual by default in the "short-term future". Fiancee doesn't have the will to attempt learning and I would never sacrifice form over function. I've also expressed probably for the first time in my life a feeling that a car is actually "too small" for my needs. I've driven mostly sub compacts to today's EPA standards and haven't felt that way before but I think time's are changing.
unless you really have to give up the stick, i hope you do it by choice and not just to appease the wife. just trying to save you a lot of potential resentment.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by potownrob »

AHTOXA wrote:I think your average large sedan is doomed. I don't really see a point to it and it has no advantages. Minivans and crossovers are more practical for a family. They also get very comparable gas mileage and seat people just as well. Both are also easier to get in and out of. Footprint is the same and people like to sit higher. Price-wise you're also in the same ballpark with a similarly equipped crossover. It drives just as well as a large sedan in terms of road manners.

Leave large sedans for luxury automakers and be done with it.
this i have to go ahead and kinda disagree with?? while i didn't like the harsher ride of the accord sport, there are other sedans that handle better than a crossover while having a decent ride. also, a midsize sedan is typically longer than a compact crossover SUV (which would typically be in a similar price bracket), which can work better for certain kinds of cargo. my sister carries long things in her accord, something that would be hard to do in most compact SUVs. I agree that in general SUVs and wagons (and long hatches) are typically more practical for carrying boxes and other non-long things, but there is a place for the sedan even for people who have to carry stuff. that said, my sister did borrow my cr-v for 2 months back in 2014 while she was moving from her condo to her new house (she owned them concurrently and didn't sell the condo til more recently). the cr-v was better for moving boxes and other bulky stuff.

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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by potownrob »

IMBoring25 wrote:To the extent that any of that is true, it's a sign of how little effort most manufacturers put into the segment.

A large sedan SHOULD be more economical and have markedly better driving dynamics than any van or crossover, just by the physics of aerodynamics and CG. A longer/lower/wider sedan should also be a better tow vehicle if the manufacturers didn't have a vested interest in pushing people with towing needs into something that's legally a light truck. There is occasionally some value in an opaque cargo area. Not everyone finds vans and crossovers easier to get into, based on stature and physical challenges.

Had I not needed a truck in the stable, an SS would have been very appealing to me.
fyi: the accord sport was significantly more fuel efficient than the cr-v. part of this was probably the newer engine in the accord and the manual transmission, but i don't think that's the whole reason. even my sister's '11 accord got better mileage than the cr-v, and that one rode smoothly too.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by tankinbeans »

I know this is apples and potatoes, but it seems like technology in general has helped large cars. My current car does better than the 95 Accord did in mixed driving.

I've calculated mileage on roughly every tank since I started driving and mixed in the Accord, the only number I really ever care about, was never better than 24. The Accord was relatively small at 3100 pounds with a 2.2 litre 145 horsepressure engine. In the Chrysler mixed is about the same ~25 but with 4200 pounds to haul around, driving all 4 wheels, with a much larger 3.6 litre 301 horsepressure engine. My best has been 28 in the Chrysler. I'd say that's progress even if I don't know where other segments are.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by theholycow »

There is also an inherent fuel economy advantage in the aerodynamic drag properties of a large sedan/coupe vs. an SUV with similar people/cargo space. The extra length (given similar designs, which is not usually the case) reduces frontal area AND coefficient of drag.

However, once you consider CAFE regulations it is far better to sell a small "light truck" than a big car. CAFE is the reason wagons and large cars went mostly extinct, and the first of the main causes of the SUV phenomenon. Of course, CAFE backfired on itself...the idea was to reduce fuel consumption, but manufacturers and consumers merely jumped over to the "light truck" fleet so they could use the fuel needed to drive the vehicles they want. They are now hooked on it, so even if CAFE was changed or removed, its effects would remain.

The good news is in the "crossover" segment. It satisfies the CAFE light truck fleet beautifully, it satisfies marketing and consumers, and delivers big station wagon cars (that are "trucks") very similar to the wagons of yore.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by AHTOXA »

potownrob wrote:
AHTOXA wrote:I think your average large sedan is doomed. I don't really see a point to it and it has no advantages. Minivans and crossovers are more practical for a family. They also get very comparable gas mileage and seat people just as well. Both are also easier to get in and out of. Footprint is the same and people like to sit higher. Price-wise you're also in the same ballpark with a similarly equipped crossover. It drives just as well as a large sedan in terms of road manners.

Leave large sedans for luxury automakers and be done with it.
this i have to go ahead and kinda disagree with?? while i didn't like the harsher ride of the accord sport, there are other sedans that handle better than a crossover while having a decent ride. also, a midsize sedan is typically longer than a compact crossover SUV (which would typically be in a similar price bracket), which can work better for certain kinds of cargo. my sister carries long things in her accord, something that would be hard to do in most compact SUVs. I agree that in general SUVs and wagons (and long hatches) are typically more practical for carrying boxes and other non-long things, but there is a place for the sedan even for people who have to carry stuff. that said, my sister did borrow my cr-v for 2 months back in 2014 while she was moving from her condo to her new house (she owned them concurrently and didn't sell the condo til more recently). the cr-v was better for moving boxes and other bulky stuff.

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Rob, I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say the sedan is doomed. I said the large sedan is doomed. My definition here is a full-size sedan; no midsize or compacts. Those still have a place in their price brackets, mostly.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by AHTOXA »

The new Impala comes to mind. It makes no sense when you can just as well buy an Equinox.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by Rope-Pusher »

theholycow wrote: The good news is in the "crossover" segment. It satisfies the CAFE light truck fleet beautifully, it satisfies marketing and consumers, and delivers big station wagon cars (that are "trucks") very similar to the wagons of yore.
When Chrysler made sure the minivan ticked-off all the boxes so it would be classified as a truck, it was smart thinking.

When they made sure the PT Cruiser met enough requirements to be classified a truck, it was genius. It's easier to see the CUVs as being somewhat "Trucky" now, but not the PT's (The PT convertibles didn't meet the truck criteria)
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by tankinbeans »

What exactly are the requirements to be considered a truck? Wasn't the HHR also a truck?

I seem to recall a few years ago there was a Lexus thatbwas originally considered a CUV, butbwas reclassified to a truck after the front fascia was revised.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by Rope-Pusher »

tankinbeans wrote:What exactly are the requirements to be considered a truck? Wasn't the HHR also a truck?

I seem to recall a few years ago there was a Lexus that was originally considered a CUV, but was reclassified to a truck after the front fascia was revised.
I don't have a copy on me now, but there were things like ground clearance minimums, flat load floor, removable seating, cargo area accessability, there was a list of qualifications but you didn't need to hit every item on the list.

Seams tummy it's sorta like a Jeep vehicle being "trail rated" - there are some minimums to hit, and some extra points for going above minimums, but in the end there is a composit score and someone draws a line and says "Below this number, it's not "Trail Rated"". You could think of it as more like "How "Trail Rated" was it?" - meaning "how high of a score did it get?" Likewise, from your original comment, "How Trucky is it?". I do know FCA tested their minivans on a "2wd off-road durability test" that included dirt and gravel road smileage.

CUV is more of a state of mind than a definition. Seams tummy that the minute you put sliding side doors for the rear passengers to use, it becomes a minivan. You could make a CUV that didn't meet the requirements to be classified as a truck, but why miss the opportunity to reap the benefits of "Truckhood"?
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by Rope-Pusher »

2018 Toyota C-HR first drive: When does a car become a crossover?

WHAT IS THIS STRANGE CROSSOVER?
Toyota calls the coupe-UV a “crossover,” but it’s a crossover in marketing speak only. It borrows from the design successes of other “coupes” in the segment, with its raked roofline, four doors and raised beltline. Ignoring the fact that consumers might have some confusion about which STD-sounding-acronym vehicle they’re driving, C-HR stands for Coupe High Rider. “High rider” is a rather loose term, however. The 2018 Toyota C-HR gets just 5.9 inches of ground clearance. A 2017 Toyota Camry has 6.1 inches of clearance. Oh, and in case you were wondering, the C-HR doesn’t get all-wheel drive, either. You can’t even get all-wheel drive in the highest trim, the XLE Premium.

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews ... z4lLjIg1Ue
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by potownrob »

AHTOXA wrote: Rob, I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say the sedan is doomed. I said the large sedan is doomed. My definition here is a full-size sedan; no midsize or compacts. Those still have a place in their price brackets, mostly.
oh, that's a whole different ballgame. not sure how i feel about that. fullsize sedans are cool and huge inside (and with a huge trunk), but you don't see many around here. no one buys them anymore, probably due to the SUV. i think i saw my first new impala a couple of weeks ago. buick lacrosse looks sweet though. heard it handles well for its size. only seen at the dealer though... do want. :shock:
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by potownrob »

AHTOXA wrote:The new Impala comes to mind. It makes no sense when you can just as well buy an Equinox.
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