Mad Max Beyond Gasoline

[Rope-Pusher]

Engine Science: Moving Beyond the Gasoline Engine
The Pros and Cons of Present and Emerging Automotive Propulsion


Not since the mid-20th century, when a turbine-powered car for the masses briefly appeared viable, have automotive powertrains been so intriguing. "Powertrain" is the blanket term for the propulsion systems that move your car and truck from Point A to Point B. That includes gas engines, diesel engines, electric motors powered by batteries, electric motors powered by hydrogen fuel cells -- you name it.
Here's why it's intriguing. You'd have to flip the calendar pages way back to the late 1800s-early 1900s to see as many production electric vehicle (EV) options as we have in 2013, and more are promised in the coming years. The diesel engine continues to gain respect and chip away at the stigma earned in the 1970s-1980s as U.S. consumers warm up to the newest clean offerings. The push to incorporate domestically produced alternative fuels such as biodiesel, ethanol, compressed natural gas (CNG), liquefied natural gas (LNG), and propane (liquefied petroleum gas, or LPG) into the transportation industry means engines aren't confined to just gas or diesel.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/cons ... z2SKjbt18I

[Squint]

Not much I didn't know about the gas/diesel/hybrid sections, but the info on LNG, Propane, and Hydrogen were interesting.

Question: why hasn't the thought of a diesel hybrid come up in the US market yet?

[tankinbeans]

Question: why hasn't the thought of a diesel hybrid come up in the US market yet?

I think I remember reading somewhere that the resulting powertrain would be too complex for them to be cost efficient, but I can't recall where I read it. Wouldn't adding a hybrid system to a diesel, that is already turbocharged, make some sort of insanely heavy frankenengine?

[theholycow]

I imagine that both the block and the turbocharger could be downsized with an electric motor adding to power just the way gas engines are downsized in hybrids that are common in the US. Are there diesel hybrids in Europe? I thought there are.

I suspect the real reason diesel hybrids aren't in the US is a marketing problem, not an engineering issue. The market's usual diesel objections would certainly apply, and the pollution issues in particular would not sit well with the sort of person who is willing to buy a hybrid. The image that people buy in a hybrid is not compatible with diesel engines. Some who are interested in fuel economy and uninterested in image would consider it, but those people tend not to buy new vehicles since they're usually interested in financial economy.

[Rope-Pusher]

Why don't we have any diesel hybrids in the USA car market?

So we take a hybrid, which is more expensive to build than a lobrid, giving it a long pay-back period in a country with inexpensive fuel, like the USA, and we take out the gas engine and we add a diesel engine, which is more expensive to build AND requires expensive after-treatment to meet exhaust emission restrictions and hence has its own long payback period in a country with inexpensive fuel, like the USA, and then you have to fuel it with a fuel that costs more per gallon than gasoline, negating 15+% of the fuel mileage savings and now you have to talk someone into buying this vehicle which takes more years to arrive at the break-even point than most people plan on owning their cars.

[Rope-Pusher]

Electric Vehicle Prices Don't Represent Costs

From Autoline Daily:


WHEN GREEN TURNS RED
And we start off today with another blow to the viability of electric cars. A little over a year ago Sergio Marchionne, the CEO of FCA, said the company would lose $10,000 on every Fiat 500e it sold. But at a conference yesterday Marchionne upped the ante. Now he says they’re losing $14,000 on every electric car they sell. So far this year Fiat sold 1,353 electric 500’s, representing a loss of nearly $19 million. And we here at Autoline are willing to bet that all automakers are losing money on their electric cars.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2014 ... ectric-500

BEARISH ON TESLA
A lot of people have gone broke betting against Elon Musk and Tesla. But now financial investors are starting to hedge their bets. A year ago institutional investors made up 88% of everyone buying stock in Tesla. Today that number is down to 62%. Part of that is probably profit taking, but it’s clear that institutional investors are starting to back away. Merrill Lynch thinks the stock is going to drop to $75. Some months ago it hit a high of $265 a share, today it’s trading at just under $200. Before you go out and short Tesla stock, remember, up to now the bears have been slaughtered. Even so, I think it’s very telling that institutional investors are reducing their holdings in the company.

[DrJerryrigger]

I just hear that quote from Fiat's CEO...really makes be want to buy one....yet Tata motors found electric cars to be cheaper to make....maybe Fiat should just make bad electric cars.

[Rope-Pusher]

I just hear that quote from Fiat's CEO...really makes be want to buy one....yet Tata motors found electric cars to be cheaper to make....maybe Fiat should just make bad electric cars.

So how many electric cars is Tata selling?

FIAT's 500 Electric has had good reviews, but the price is subsidized. Nobody is giving away their batteries to automakers these daze.

[DrJerryrigger]

I just hear that quote from Fiat's CEO...really makes be want to buy one....yet Tata motors found electric cars to be cheaper to make....maybe Fiat should just make bad electric cars.

So how many electric cars is Tata selling?

FIAT's 500 Electric has had good reviews, but the price is subsidized. Nobody is giving away their batteries to automakers these daze.

I don't know if Tata is even selling them anywhere. The buzz around them has chilled recently, but still electric motors and batteries are about the same cost (if not leas) of manufacturer as an internal combustion engine if made on equal scale.

[Rope-Pusher]

I just hear that quote from Fiat's CEO...really makes be want to buy one....yet Tata motors found electric cars to be cheaper to make....maybe Fiat should just make bad electric cars.

So how many electric cars is Tata selling?

FIAT's 500 Electric has had good reviews, but the price is subsidized. Nobody is giving away their batteries to automakers these daze.

I don't know if Tata is even selling them anywhere. The buzz around them has chilled recently, but still electric motors and batteries are about the same cost (if not leas) of manufacturer as an internal combustion engine if made on equal scale.

Why do you say that? Many times more batteries and electric motors are manufactured than ICEs and still the cost of electric vehicle motors and battery packs are many times more than the price of ICEs.

[Squint]

I'd be interested to see the financials of Tesla. It seems like it would be simpler to make a profit with the expenses of manufacturing with the $80k electric vehicle than the potential $40k sedan that Tesla is rumored (or is it more substantiated now?) to be making in the near future. Does the removal of all ICE parts reduce the cost of the engine/drivetrain that much that the increased cost of electrical components is offset?

[Rope-Pusher]

I'd be interested to see the financials of Tesla. It seems like it would be simpler to make a profit with the expenses of manufacturing with the $80k electric vehicle than the potential $40k sedan that Tesla is rumored (or is it more substantiated now?) to be making in the near future. Does the removal of all ICE parts reduce the cost of the engine/drivetrain that much that the increased cost of electrical components is offset?

The batteries alone cost more than most cars, let alone the price of an ICE.

"Of leading hybrid and EV models, Navigant reports the battery pack for Tesla’s top-selling Model S costs $40,000, including $25,000 for cells supplied by Panasonic.

Other models cited in the consultancy's report include:

Nissan's all-electric Leaf: battery pack, $16,000; cells, $11,000; cell supplier, Automotive Energy Supply.
General Motors’ Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric vehicle: battery pack, $17,000; cells, $9,600; cell supplier, LG Chem.
Toyota’s Prius plug-in hybrid: battery pack, $8,000; cells, $3,500; cell supplier, Panasonic."

http://wardsauto.com/asia-pacific/batte ... technology

[Squint]

Then they are going to have to get far cheaper cells if they want to make money on a $40,000 sedan that is rumored to be in the Tesla pipeline.

I doubt Tesla brings in enough money to absorb a loss on every car like the majority of electric cars apparently cause - and they don't need the increased EPA MPG estimate that benefits the big manufacturers for CAFE...

[IMBoring25]

You actually made two contradictory observations there. I have read that Tesla does indeed lose money on every car (and that would be especially true if you consider the higher-trim models come with a literally unlimited supply of electricity). Where they make their money is ostensibly selling CAFE credits to other automakers.

[theholycow]

Thread title vaguely relevant because future...
Whole album full of stuff:
http://imgur.com/a/pmRxw
Especially this: