Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Postby Rope-Pusher » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:41 pm

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The proposed settlement covers about 1.5 million Tacoma compact pickups, Tundra full-size pickups and Sequoia SUVs alleged to have received inadequate rust protection that could lead to corrosion serious enough to jeopardize their structural integrity, according to court papers.

Attorneys for the plaintiffs in court papers supporting the settlement estimated the value of frame replacements at about $3.375 billion based on a cost of about $15,000 per vehicle and the inspections at about $90 million at $60 per vehicle.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-toyot ... SKBN1370PE
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Postby theholycow » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:04 pm

Toy Yoda had a recall (not sure if voluntary or resulting from a lawsuit) like that for earlier trucks, including the 2002 Tundra that my dad bought new (and which now is in my yard waiting for me to fix and sell it). They did tons of buybacks, frame replacements, and frame treatments (looks like POR15 on steroids). I guess $3.4 billion is less than the cost of just building them better. Same attitude must be why they kept mismanufacturing ball joints and paying to repair trucks mangled in crashes after the damned things catastrophically failed, causing the wheel to fold under at speed...after issuing repeated recalls for them.

Anyway, why are there not similar rust class actions against other manufacturers who also used garbage pot metal for their frames?
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Postby Rope-Pusher » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:30 am

Yanno,....Rust Never Sleeps

It's all about where you operate the vehicle and the duty cycle you put it through.

I remember Ford had some oiling problems on inline 4 & 6 cylinder engines that primarily showed up in cold climate areas...which are also the areas where they tend to salt the roads in the winter, so it is the rust belt too, to a great extent.

Like structural rust, these engine failures due to insufficient lubrication didn't show up in short-duration accelerated testing that the automakers typically perform. Real drivers go thru a lot more distinct operating cycles, rather than 4-hour stints of solid driving that might occur 4 or 6 times a day. Vehicle owners cold start more often, they ride 'em hard and put 'em away wet more often, and they park them in enclosed garages for 8-14 hours. This results in spikes in underhood temperatures and long periods of elevated temperatures than for the bodies and chassis that favor corrosion more than parking outdoors would. It's not that they chose to build them knowing that they would fail to meet customer's expectations, it's more like their testing didn't replicate real-life vehicle usage and they never saw it coming when customers started having issues.

Remember the early news reports of the Takata airbag deployment explosions? The areas where they considered vehicle operation most likely to have a climatic exposure that could result in the shrapnel expulsion during airbag inflation were the areas where structural rusting or cold engine lubrication issues were NOT expected to occur.

In some of these cases, the vehicle manufacturers choose to limit their expenses by only recalling vehicles registered in the areas where the climatic effects are likely to provoke the issues. Who's to say that the next year you won't move to another area of the country and put your vehicle in jeopardy of engine failure, structural rust or excessively enthusiastic airbag deployment?
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Postby Rope-Pusher » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:51 am

....and don't even get me started on premature ball joint failures!

I blame them squarely on pre-lubed parts....lubed "for life" by the ball joint manufacturer and with no provisions for lubrication in service.

Everyone crowed how they could seal tighter, because they never would need to bleed out old lube. Truth is, the grease and seals get cooked by heat from the brakes and contamination still gets in there, dirt and water usually.....but never gets flushed out and the grease cooks down to a tar-like substance and then everyone wonders why the ball joints fail. Another case where accelerated testing didn't match customer usage closely enough. Now that 200,000 miles is the new 100,000 miles, and the average vehicle is 11.4 years old, more of these issues seem to come up.

In days of yore, I've seen rusty water squirt out of ball joints and tie rod end joints as they were relubed, but if you relubed them twice a year they didn't seem to go bad......maybe I should write to Trump about this!
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Postby theholycow » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:33 pm

Accelerated testing shortcomings I understand, but when there is real world experience with people in danger and huge followup costs I would expect someone who wants to stop the bleeding to say "HEY! This is crazy, let's go back to a better steel like GM used in 1980 and ball joint designs that don't do this to us".

On the ball joint issue, Toyota's was more than just the sealed ball joint issue. The repeated recalls indicated that there was a scratch that damaged them during manufacturing.

Additionally, however, I've read that it is more common to use a fail-safe design, with which you'd just pull over (with a wobbly but rolling wheel) and call a tow truck if the ball joint failed instead of having the wheel folder under or break off (and ROLL under, throwing the vehicle into a rollover situation). I don't know front ends that well so I can't remember quite what I read.

Also contributing, it seems Toyota didn't expect people to use the Tundra as a truck, so it wasn't built for the constant loading applied to it by some people. I can't blame them for that; they meant it for office commuters and people hauling a bicycle to the trail. More recently they sent engineers on ride-alongs with ranchers and roofers to see how trucks get used and learn how to build for that market, so they're trying with regards to that issue (and I understand the more recent generation is heavier and tougher).
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Postby Rope-Pusher » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:11 pm

theholycow wrote:Also contributing, it seems Toyota didn't expect people to use the Tundra as a truck, so it wasn't built for the constant loading applied to it by some people. I can't blame them for that; they meant it for office commuters and people hauling a bicycle to the trail. More recently they sent engineers on ride-alongs with ranchers and roofers to see how trucks get used and learn how to build for that market, so they're trying with regards to that issue (and I understand the more recent generation is heavier and tougher).

Heil tell Hugh, during the DamnliarChrysler daze, the Damnliar guys thought their A580 RWD Slushbox was ready for use in the Ram pick-m-ups and we had to show them by our Dyno and endurance vehicle testing that the design needed further development before use in trucks. There is more to it than designing for peak torque. The amount of time spent at significant torque levels for each gear range must be considered as well, among other things, like the maximum torque that can be transmitted through the tires on a fully-loaded truck in 4WD.
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Postby watkins » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:46 am

theholycow wrote:Also contributing, it seems Toyota didn't expect people to use the Tundra as a truck, so it wasn't built for the constant loading applied to it by some people.

It looks like a truck, smells like a truck, rides like a truck, and even tastes like a truck, but we built it like a Yugo!
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Postby Rope-Pusher » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:25 am

...and another thing : rural areas tend to have dirt roads. Dirt forms a wet, abrasive paste that causes wear and corrosion, leading to issues that don't show up in " sitty slicker" vehicles until years later. Testing out in the southwest might not show the issues due to the dry climate, but even testing in wet climates might not catch the issues if it is done during the wrong season or too accelerated in time for the corrosion issues to show their ugly faces.
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