New manuals...

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kamesama980
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New manuals...

Post by kamesama980 »

Rant against new cars AKA the real reason stick shift isn't popular. it's not because it's hard, it's because newer vehicles are harder to drive like an expert.

I've been driving stick for close to a decade now, most of my vehicles have been that way, exclusively for roughly the last 5 or 6 years. my own 6 cars/trucks, 3 motorcycles, plus shop and school time driving various manuals. Granny driving, spirited driving, even a bit of competitive lately. Modestly: I'm not half bad at it. When I got my new truck last october ('12 Nissan Frontier 4.0 V6 4x4 M6) I noticed it was a little touchy about timing while shifting, I just put it down to a matter of getting used to it's nuances. After driving it almost exclusively for 3 months, it's STILL pissing me off because I feel like a noob not being able to time shifts or drive smoothly without thinking about every movement and forcing it to be smooth. After getting the firebird out last night and after running through the gears once being able to wind it around my little finger without second thought and actually relax and enjoy cruising and rowing the gears without it being an effort, I decided it really is the stupid truck.

Points in it's favor:
-phenomenal tolerance for low revs (like 2-300 rpm) and any throttle angle at any revs without lugging/bucking/jerking.
-wide, flat torque curve

Points against it:
-Throttle by wire: I hit the gas (or let off), it thinks about it and if the computer is ok with that, it actuates the throttle in a smoothed out version of what it thinks I want. (I will say it's more responsive than many I've driven. A cobalt I drove in the shop one time had to have the gas down for almost a second before it opened the throttle to blip for a DCDS.). The throttle actuator is slower than my foot and I could fill a page with other complaints. Suffice to say that while the engine is capable of being quite responsive, it is less so because of the speed capability of the actuator and programming of the computer.
-Dual mass flywheel: I haven't read anything on the frontier forums about someone putting in a regular single-piece FW and complaining. Suckers also 40+lbs by itself.
-shifter: too far forward and to the right (away from the driver). Oh wait, I'm in America: designed for short wide people. Also feels like it's mounted with about 6 layers of bushings. I ground 5th early on (see shifter location) and didn't feel a thing. only (barely) heard it. in other vehicles I've been in, driving or not, you feel it in the floor, your seat, shifter, hear it loudly: "OMG I'm dying!!!". This was more like "oh hey, you got ketchup on your lip, no biggie"
-clutch action: There's a damper/accumulator on the hydraulics. WTF? pedal's too light. With tennis shoes it's ok but with boots on I can barely feel the pedal.
-brakes have lots of mechanical advantage (so a 90lb grandma can stop a 5klb non-braked trailer?) pedal takes very little pressure to stop but goes halfway down. (common complaint on the forums.)
-how everything comes together for the shifting/driving process: up to about 85% acceleration capability you have to forcibly think about timing every shift. let the clutch out too fast, even with revs matched, and it bucks. too slow: same thing. oh, you didn't have that shift rev-matched within 10 rpm, JERK. Wheras other cars (like driving the firebird last night) you can clutch, shift, and gas together smoothly and everything just kinda falls in place and you can shift fast, slow, rev-matched, or not, compensate for one characteristic by using another. the truck has 2 methods of shifting that don't produce noobish driving appearance: let the clutch out and slip for EXACTLY 1.2735 seconds (assuming you led the gas pedal by .1542 seconds to 8.4325% to get the throttle in the right place to rev match). Too much gas or lead the gas by .0002s too much, revs flare up. too slow? jerky jerky. Oh and make sure not to try to pull the shifter out of gear until the clutch is fully disengaged or it'll feel like it's catching on and going to break something wheras every other older manual I can put a little gentle pressure in the out-of-this-gear-toward-next-gear and as the torque is switching when I let off the gas and push the clutch down it just smoothly slides into the next gear by the time I start letting out the clutch. The other option is you can drive balls-to-the-wall which is like most cars: looks OK when you get good at it but does wear the drivetrain, uses a lot of gas, and is frowned upon on by polite society and the people with flashing lights.

So last night I was messing around a little cuz I haven't driven it in a while (fair-weather car) and it's just fun and relaxing to row the gears in there. short shift: cool. normal RPM: cool. high RPM: cool. Heavy on the skinny pedal: cool. shift fast: cool. shift slow: cool. everything just kinda slides into place naturally and the world is good. The truck is stressful because you have to time both pedals and the stick perfectly or you look like a noob. Every shift has to be thought about and I worry "OK, is this one going to go OK or make me look like a damn 16yo first learning to drive?" then sort of a grimace and wince waiting for jerks, grinds, rev-flares, etc as I go through the motions, thinking about every step. Then at the end, "oh good it actually worked...for once". yes, congrats: I've managed to not completely botch one shift. 4 more to go and then look, another stop light up ahead and I get to do it all over again.

end rant/ramble
OK I admit it's a little dramatic for emphasis but all true. Seriously, if this were my first stick shift vehicle and not my 500th, I'd probably write it off as a confusing and stressful anachronism for weirdos like the crotchety old guy down the street too. (Mind you I'm fast becoming the crotchety old guy down the street)
-Russ
2012 Nissan Frontier 4.0l M6 4x4
1990 Toyota Cressida 3.0l M5
1994 Pontiac Firebird LT1 M6
1970 Volkwagen Beetle M4
1990 Suzuki VX800 SM5
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Re: New manuals...

Post by Rope-Pusher »

^ The driveability gets to be this way because all the engine software calibration time and effort go toward the slushbox. I'd even say there is a shortage of calibration engineers who are Amish. We had to explain to vehicle development engineers one time that tipping into the throttle while launching from a standstill was causing a DIP in engine rpm. They replied "Well, YEAH! As you let out the clutch the load pulls the rpm down" and we had to explain that we observed this phenomenon PRIOR to lifting the clutch pedal off the downstop. I just think that among the group of them, nobody took the time to notice what was going on. Everyone was just commenting on how weak the engine was off-idle. They fickset the condition and we were now able to launch on an upward gradient with a fully-loaded vehicle with no excessive clutch slip because the throttle plate movement was now synchronized with the accelerator pedal movement.

These kinds of issues go back way before throttle-by-wire. Even with cable throttle linkage on carburetors or throttle bodies, if the throttle responsiveness was biased to make the slushbox feel more lively, it was likely difficult to drive smoothly for those of the Amish persuasion.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by theholycow »

Good rant. Reminds me a lot of the 2008 VW I had, which was the reason I came here...before that car I had driven a few manuals quite well with no instruction but never owned one, then I got the VW and felt like I had no idea what I was doing. It turned out to be the same sort of driveability issues at fault for tripping me up.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by IMBoring25 »

I've heard some of it attributed to deliberately-installed electronic dashpots to keep abrupt throttle inputs from messing with the mixture and thus emissions requirements.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by Rope-Pusher »

It's also about driveability - tip-in / tip-out smoothness. If the throttle closes slowly, the deceleration rate is lower and it is perceived as driving more smoothly. The members of this forum might just rather have full control over their throttle positions and just pulse the clutch pedal about the engagement point to cruise smoothly around a parking lot or in stop-n-go traffic.....or develop finer control of the throttle pedal position and position transitioning.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by RITmusic2k »

Spot-on rant/analysis!

I saw the same change between my last two cars - only built 4 years apart, but by organizations with different design/engineering goals. The ZHP rolled off the line with all the nanny features you mentioned above; the good news, however, is that there are ways to compensate for this. We both believe it shouldn't require this step to get the car we want, but at least we can. I've removed my clutch delay valve already, and am going to switch to a single-mass flywheel as soon as it's time for a clutch job. There's a variety of throttle-response tweakers out there (sprint booster, pedalbox) which boost the signal coming from the pedal and request more throttle more quickly - I haven't driven in a thusly-modified car myself but all the guys on my ZHP forum swear that it does a great job of emulating the cable throttle feeling. Aftermarket shift kits have always been a go-to with the performance mod crowd...

So while it's not ideal, we can overcome a lot of this baggage if we're willing.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by AHTOXA »

Kamesama!

Anyhow, the VW Rabbit has been my worst manual due to the terrible clutch feedback. All other cars were just fine and I've never had issues with drivability, and I'm pretty anal about little jerks and fits of un-smoothness.

I can easily switch between my DBW, my motorcycle and any car with a cable-driven throttle. I would have issues if I were back in my old VW Rabbit, though. I'm sure of it.

Bottom line is that some cars are far worse than others when it comes to DBW. VW was a great (horrible) example of how not do set up DBW programming, but all others I have driven are rather neutral. The is slightly less rev hang on a cable-operated throttle than a decent DBW, but it's nowhere as noticeable as VW's lag was. That thing was terrible. On the flipside, I have driven and owned a few GREAT DBW setups, where I couldn't tell the difference and would have never thought it was DBW - my old LS2 GTO.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by Shadow »

I have no issues with new manual vehicles, with the one exception being vehicles that have excessive rev hang.

I've said it before and I'll say it again--my Audi has absolutely no rev hang issues, nor any of the other issues mentioned by the OP. It drives just as well (or better) as any of the older cars I've owned over years with a manual transmission. In fact, I've come to really enjoy driving cars with hydraulic clutches, simply because of the easy clutch pedal pressure. First time I drove one, I nearly put my foot thru the floor. Since that first time, it has been something that I really enjoy.

Another car that seems to have gotten it right is the Mini. Very easy to drive and very forgiving under all circumstances.

I still haven't met a manual transmission vehicle that I don't like....
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Re: New manuals...

Post by RITmusic2k »

FYI, there's a difference between a hydraulic clutch and a hydraulic clutch with a delay valve installed - kamesama980 and I were only ranting about the latter. It's basically a pressure regulator that limits the maximum rate of fluid transfer through the clutch's hydraulic system. The idea is that it becomes impossible to dump the clutch sidestep-style... the delay valve smooths the action. That's great for somebody who's new to manual or a careless driver and it probably lessens overall wear and tear on the system (a good thing for a manufacturer who wants to minimize warranty driveline repairs), but for a seasoned driver this valve makes it impossible to properly feel the position of the clutch - it makes it so your clutch pedal position no longer directly corresponds to the position of the pressure plate.

When I first got my car, I would often bring the pedal up to the friction point, sync up, then dump the clutch and apply throttle, only to have my revs surge for a moment and 'rubberband' the car forward... because even though my foot was all the way off the pedal, full pressure wasn't yet applied through the disc. I was slipping when I shouldn't have been, all thanks to that damn delay valve. After I removed it, my clutch system, while still hydraulic, has that proper 'feel' fully restored and I can quickly engage gears as smoothly as I want to without having to hassle with the introduced vagueness.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by Shadow »

RITmusic2k wrote:FYI, there's a difference between a hydraulic clutch and a hydraulic clutch with a delay valve installed.
Yup, BMW and their infamous CDV. Lots of people rip it out. I'd probably do the same if I owned a new BMW.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by AHTOXA »

Shadow wrote: In fact, I've come to really enjoy driving cars with hydraulic clutches, simply because of the easy clutch pedal pressure.
I thought clutches were hydraulic of a couple of decades now?

A heavy clutch isn't always cable-actuated. I've had plenty of hydro clutches that were heavy. GTO was one example.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by watkins »

My Viggen has a significantly firmer pedal than a regular 9-3 of the same vintage.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by tankinbeans »

AHTOXA, you had the Soul, correct? I can't recall your opinion of the driveability. Everybody here knows the issues I had with the Forte. Were it not for my friend's VW I probably would have given up altogether (which is funny because that car pisses me off now). The Focus spoiled me frankly.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by AHTOXA »

tankinbeans wrote:AHTOXA, you had the Soul, correct? I can't recall your opinion of the driveability. Everybody here knows the issues I had with the Forte. Were it not for my friend's VW I probably would have given up altogether (which is funny because that car pisses me off now). The Focus spoiled me frankly.
Aside from the pedal being very light in the Soul, there weren't any drivablility issues - not anything like the '08 Rabbit, which cow can attest to. That thing was dreadful. With the Soul, there wasn't much rev hang that I remember and the friction point was good. I sold the car for other reasons.

What I enjoy about the Sonic, is its much stiffer clutch. Most cars in this segment get a very, very light clutch, which I'm not a big fan of.

I remember posting about a friend's Fiat 500. That car's clutch was the lightest clutch I have ever driven, and I hated it with a passion. I drove it for a very short time and gave it right back to my friend. I'd expect the Abarth is better in this respect, but I haven't tried.
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Re: New manuals...

Post by theholycow »

AHTOXA wrote:I thought clutches were hydraulic of a couple of decades now?
One data point for that survey: The hydraulic clutch in my Buick is from a base model 1994 Chevy S10. I just checked, the S10 has had a hydraulic clutch since the vehicle debuted in 1982. It must have been ahead of its time.
A heavy clutch isn't always cable-actuated. I've had plenty of hydro clutches that were heavy. GTO was one example.
...and my car, but that's not particularly useful data. :D
AHTOXA wrote:like the '08 Rabbit, which cow can attest to.
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