America cannot elect a Celebrity over a War Hero: Plz read

[OzZyMaN2438]

Regarding the opinions of the people on this forum, I am surprised and then I am not surprised. I thought that the majority of the people here would vote for the more conservative of the two candidates. I myself will vote for McCain because I am a hardcore republican conservative and the fact that Obama simply scares the sh*t out of me...

Reasons for McCain:
1-History of Military service
2-Plan for national security
3-Will not simply pull out of Iraq
4-Will not ruin gun laws
5-Harsher on border security
6-Will be more stern on relations with Iran and China
7-Will oppose gay marriage
8- Palin is friggin HOTTTTT !! lol

Reasons to not vote for McCain:
1-A little bit of a hothead
2-He's old, and Palin, while ranking very high on the stroke-a-bility scale and somewhat competent, is not ready for presidency
3- He will not inspire like Obama can


Reasons NOT for Obama:
1-VERY unpatriotic- will not wear flag lapel pin, will not respect the national anthem with hand over heart, he and his wife make it very known that they are not proud to be Americans.
2-VERY anti-white -he refused to condemn the words of his racist pastor even though he claimed that he did not share his ideals.
3-Says whatever the people want to hear
4-Makes promises of change and claims and never once setting a CLEAR plan to achieve said change and hope.
5-Plays off of peoples desire for change and emotions in order to get better ratings in the polls
6-He was voted the most liberal senator
7-Instead of taking a stand on an issue, he simply voted "present". This was documented over 100 times. This adds to my claims that he will simply say whatever the people want to hear. I have no time for someone like that.
8- He has no problems with communication with known terrorists if elected
9-Muslim Heratige. Yes, I know that he is not a practicing muslim, but he did go to a muslim school for several years and has muslim family members and no matter what anyone says, Islam is not what its members say it it.
10-Bad for gun laws
11-Will not oppose gay marriage to the extent that McCain will.
12- Obama is more of a celebrity than a serious politician in my opinion, and seeing as how America is a celebrity/media dominated country, people are falling for this hook, line, and sinker.

Reasons to vote FOR Obama
1: Fantastic speaker
2: Greater chance of success to aid economic problems in the short term future
3: Inspires like few presidential candiates in recent memory could ever have
4: Biden, while a shady guy in my opinion, has much more experience than Palin at this time.

CONCLUSION: Seeing as how the positives outweigh the negatives by far favoring McCain, in my opinion, and thus he will be receiving my vote in November. However I will state that I am sad that these two candidates are the best that our great country could come up with. McCain would be awesome with Huckabee or Romney by his side. Huckabee was awesome but he just needed to grow a pair, and I would be very enthusiastic about Romney as a VP but not president because I doubt his ability to let the Mormon church higher-ups influence his presidential decisions makes me nervous too. Seeing as how this is a free country I will be happy to debate with people who do not agree with my but refuse to flame based on opinion so please return the favor and respect my opinion as well.
I will be deeply disturbed and ashamed of my country if we elect a celebrity who is good with words over a decorated, seasoned war hero.

[Evicatos]

I predict this thread is going to get interesting.

[jomotopia]

wow. it sounds like most of your research has been from watching McCain ads. you have the right to your own opinion, but most of what you say about Obama is simply not true or has nothing to do with his potential presidency. and many of your reasons to vote for McCain also are not, IMO, good reasons to base a vote.

Reasons for McCain:
1-History of Military service
So? good for him, but just b/c somebody has been in the military does not mean they will make a good president, and just b/c someone has not does not mean they will not make a good president
4-Will not ruin gun laws
neither will Obama
6-Will be more stern on relations with Iran and China
too harsh since he seems to want to refuse to even sit down at the table and talk to them
7-Will oppose gay marriage
which is not a good thing
8- Palin is friggin HOTTTTT !! lol
i'll have to assume you're joking on this being a "reason"

Reasons to not vote for McCain:
1-A little bit of a hothead
2-He's old, and Palin, while ranking very high on the stroke-a-bility scale and somewhat competent, is not ready for presidency
3- He will not inspire like Obama can

all very good reasons.

Reasons NOT for Obama:
1-VERY unpatriotic- will not wear flag lapel pin, will not respect the national anthem with hand over heart, he and his wife make it very known that they are not proud to be Americans.
i have seen him do both and never heard any of this "we're not proud to be Americans" bs
2-VERY anti-white -he refused to condemn the words of his racist pastor even though he claimed that he did not share his ideals.
anit-white? he practically is white. he was raised by a white family.
3-Says whatever the people want to hear
as with every politician
5-Plays off of peoples desire for change and emotions in order to get better ratings in the polls
well, he is a politician afterall
7-Instead of taking a stand on an issue, he simply voted "present". This was documented over 100 times. This adds to my claims that he will simply say whatever the people want to hear. I have no time for someone like that.
and how many times has McCain voted "present"? you can't base your decision on someone's Senate record unless you look not only at how they voted, but actually read the bill they voted on. one camp will say the other "voted against helping our veterans"... well, what else was in that bill? maybe a bunch of money to oil companies, or who knows what. every issue does not get its own bill
8- He has no problems with communication with known terrorists if elected
Bill Ayers again? he just happened to serve on the same committee as Obama, along with many many other people
9-Muslim Heratige. Yes, I know that he is not a practicing muslim, but he did go to a muslim school for several years and has muslim family members and no matter what anyone says, Islam is not what its members say it it.
so what? you think he's a radical Muslim terrorist? you know he's a Christian right?
10-Bad for gun laws
actually, no
11-Will not oppose gay marriage to the extent that McCain will.
good

items i have not included are either too vague to argue, i do not have enough info to argue, are opinions only and hence can't really be argued, or are valid points.

it seems the driving force in your choice is simply that McCain is a war hero. that's great. McCain is a great man, and i have massive amounts of respect for what he went through and did in Vietnam. but that doesn't mean he will make a good President.

reasons 2 and 9 to not vote for Obama leads me to believe you may have some prejudices, but i will not assume that you do or try to call you a racist. but i really do fear that there are a lot of people out there that are going to vote for McCain simply b/c Obama is black or b/c of his name.

[jomotopia]

granted, this is from Obama's own website, and you can never really know whether any politician means what they say, but i don't see a problem with this. i am all for the 2nd amendment. but you don't need an AK-47 for self defense or hunting, and just b/c you have to register a hand gun, or are limited to how frequently you can buy one, does not impede your right to bear arms or defend yourself. it's not like he's like a lot of Democrats that want to completely ban guns.

REALITY: OBAMA HAS CONSISTENTLY SUPPORTED COMMON SENSE GUN CONTROL, AS WELL AS THE RIGHTS OF LAW-ABIDING GUN OWNERS

Obama Supported A Package Of Legislation That Would Limit Handgun Sales To One A Month. ''The package closes the Firearm Owners Identification (FOID) card loopholes which resulted in the shooting out in Melrose Park. We're eliminating 17 specific assault weapons. There is no reason why anybody should need an assault weapon to protect themselves or their family,' Obama said. 'We're limiting handgun sales to one a month. 'We're calling for handgun registration. It's very hard right now to track whether or not a felon has turned in his weapons or if he has a FOID card because we don't know how many weapons he has purchased.'" [Chicago Defender, 2/20/01]

Obama Voted To Prohibit Multiple Sales Of Handguns Within A 30-Day Period. In 2003, Obama voted to create the offense of unlawful acquisition of handguns, prohibiting the multiple sales of handguns within a 30-day period. In 2000, Obama was co-sponsor of bill prohibiting the transfer of more than one handgun within a 30-day period. The bill exempted federally licensed firearm dealers who purchase handguns in the regular course of business, military, law enforcement officials and certain hunters. [93rd GA, HB 2579, 5/16/03, 3R L; 23-36-0; 91st GA; SB 1614; 2000]

Obama Disagreed With The NRA That "People Should Be Unimpeded And Unregulated On Gun Ownership;" In Favor Of Handgun Registration And Licensing Requirements. Obama said, "I know that the NRA believes people should be unimpeded and unregulated on gun ownership. I disagree. I do not object to the lawful use and ownership of firearms, but I do think it is entirely it appropriate for the state to monitor it. Too many of these guns end up in the hands of criminals even though they were originally purchased by people who did not have a felony. I'll continue to be in favor of handgun law registration requirements and licensing requirements for training." [Chicago Defender, 7/5/01]

Obama: America Has A "Tradition Of Gun Ownership In This Country That Can Be Respected." The Weekly Standard reported, "When a student asks Obama for his views on the Second Amendment, he reminds his audience that he taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago and is thus familiar with the arguments regarding the right to bear arms. He acknowledges 'a tradition of gun ownership in this country that can be respected,' and says that his academic studies convinced him gun ownership 'is an individual right and not just the right of a militia.' But he was not finished. 'Like all rights, though, they are constrained by the needs and the rights of the community.' Obama then spoke of 34 students who were killed on the streets of Chicago and called for sensible gun control to prevent senseless death. He speaks of the importance of parental involvement in education before listing the many ways in which he would expand the role of the federal government in the schools."

http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/20 ... amas_c.php

[jomotopia]

but you don't need an AK-47 for self defense or hunting

I don't understand this. I respect your viewpoint but why do people say this? Not everyone owns arms JUST for hunting or self-defense. Some people actually like sporting purposes. In most of the world, firearms are used for sporting purposes, and this goes well beyond hunting!

Saying something like that is similar to saying why should supercars be legal? They can go so fast and be driven so recklessly, greatly endangering others. You don't need that much power anyway to get from work to home everyday! (thus, not everyone just uses their car for commuting, some people actually enjoy driving in and of itself or for motorsports).

To me it just sounds like a way to sort-of kind-of agree with the gun control lobby. You can "respect second amendment rights" but make everything illegal except .22LR revolvers. It's still techincally "bearing arms," right?

We need to be careful who we agree with.

well you have a very valid point. i sort of pulled that out of his quote. keeping all guns legal is fine by me too. i just wanted to illustrate that my understanding of Obama's gun control stance is that it's not that outrageous.

[AHTOXA]

Oy...

[jomotopia]

criminilazing the use of a handgun in a home defense situation.

He has also stated his opposition against legal concealed carry, although honestly that is a bit of a moot point since that isn't the President's area of influence, it is a state matter.

those i have not heard about and do worry me. mainly the first since as you said there's not much he can do for the 2nd. i am a fan of concealed carry and think that i might some day like to get a concealed carry permit.

if you could provide a link to more info on the first item i would like to see it. i can't see how someone could make an argument that using a handgun in home defense is any different from using a rifle.

stop editing your posts after i quote them!

[jomotopia]

see that seems to go back along the same lines as what i said about basing your decision on somebody's senate record without actually reading the actual bills. people take one sentence out of the bill that sounds good, say the opposing candidate voted no on it, and it gets turned into "this candidate is against everything good!".

[Eric1285]

We can watch the economy continue going down the drain if Obama is elected. He apparently doesn't believe that the fundamentals of our economy are strong. Last I checked, capitalism was the greatest driver of economic growth and development anywhere in the world.

We can also expect our dependence on foreign oil, contribution to global climate change, and global food prices and shortages increase if Obama is elected. His opposition to domestic drilling is outrageous and is incorrectly based on the ridiculous assumption that all the land that oil companies currently hold the rights to for drilling will miraculously ALL yield oil. He apparently does not understand that the oil companies buy the rights to drill because they are speculating that the land will yield oil. Senator Obama also seems to believe that increasing ethanol production will help the current situation, yet he fails to realize that global food prices have soared because of our government's backing of corn production for the purposes of producing ethanol. While I commend his proposals and efforts to increase spending on other sources of renewable energy, ethanol is a "solution" that I cannot support due to its adverse effects on food prices and the fact that it may actually produce more greenhouse gases than it offsets.

My other big gripe with Obama's proposals is with his corporate windfall tax. If he manages to pass it, it will be a huge step backwards for the very corporations who are trying to limit our dependence on foreign oil and advance our ability to produce energy from clean, renewable sources.

[OzZyMaN2438]

Like I said- I think that America could do better than both of these guys.

[Warner]

Regarding the opinions of the people on this forum, I am surprised and then I am not surprised. I thought that the majority of the people here would vote for the more conservative of the two candidates. I myself will vote for McCain because I am a hardcore republican conservative and the fact that Obama simply scares the sh*t out of me...

Reasons for McCain:
1-History of Military service
2-Plan for national security
3-Will not simply pull out of Iraq
4-Will not ruin gun laws
5-Harsher on border security
6-Will be more stern on relations with Iran and China
7-Will oppose gay marriage
8- Palin is friggin HOTTTTT !! lol

First, I like that you numbered your reasons. It makes them easier to reply to.

1) Like Jomo said, having military service, while it is a respectable thing, doesn't mean you'll be a good president. Although if you just listed that as a characteristic you respect, then I won't argue against that.

2) What about McCain's do you like and what about Obama's don't you like?

3) Obama isn't simply pulling out of Iraq, either.

4) I wouldn't go as far as to say Obama is ruining guns laws, although he does want them to be more strict. I'll give you this one, as I don't agree with Obama on his views on guns.

5) John McCain has emphasized border security more often than Obama, but Obama has said he wants to improve the infrastructure, physically and virtually. Honestly, I think they'll both do this job well and view is as a plus on both of them and, therefore, think that it doesn't really need mentioning.

6) I agree with Jomo on this one. I think sitting down and negotiating with countries that even oppose us is a good idea. Just because they oppose us politically doesn't mean they don't have the ability to negotiate. McCain's campaign has been using this as an attack on Obama. He paints those countries as the stereotypical "bad guy" who can't be reasoned with and does bad things just for the sake of doing them. That's not the case at all.

7) Obama actually opposes gay marriage as well. He is in favor of civil unions, though, with goes further in the support of homosexuals than McCain goes. I support gay marriage, though, so I don't think that's a good quality about McCain, but that's merely my opinion against yours.

Assumed to be a joke. She's not bad, but her voice and accent and forced folksy mannerisms ruin every good look she has.

Reasons to not vote for McCain:
1-A little bit of a hothead
2-He's old, and Palin, while ranking very high on the stroke-a-bility scale and somewhat competent, is not ready for presidency
3- He will not inspire like Obama can

I agree with all of these reasons.

Reasons NOT for Obama:
1-VERY unpatriotic- will not wear flag lapel pin, will not respect the national anthem with hand over heart, he and his wife make it very known that they are not proud to be Americans.
2-VERY anti-white -he refused to condemn the words of his racist pastor even though he claimed that he did not share his ideals.
3-Says whatever the people want to hear
4-Makes promises of change and claims and never once setting a CLEAR plan to achieve said change and hope.
5-Plays off of peoples desire for change and emotions in order to get better ratings in the polls
6-He was voted the most liberal senator
7-Instead of taking a stand on an issue, he simply voted "present". This was documented over 100 times. This adds to my claims that he will simply say whatever the people want to hear. I have no time for someone like that.
8- He has no problems with communication with known terrorists if elected
9-Muslim Heratige. Yes, I know that he is not a practicing muslim, but he did go to a muslim school for several years and has muslim family members and no matter what anyone says, Islam is not what its members say it it.
10-Bad for gun laws
11-Will not oppose gay marriage to the extent that McCain will.
12- Obama is more of a celebrity than a serious politician in my opinion, and seeing as how America is a celebrity/media dominated country, people are falling for this hook, line, and sinker.

1) First of all, the forwarded e-mail that you're referring to is very misleading. It is true that there have been times when he hasn't placed his hand over his heart and there have been times when he hasn't worn a flag pin, but there have been just as many times (or more) when he has done those things. They have never said they are not proud to be American. The quote you are referring to that his wife said was misunderstood and misinterpreted and even misquoted many times. She was basically emphasizing that she is more proud of this country than she ever has been before. Honestly, if Obama weren't patriotic, do you really think he would be running to be President? I think questioning either candidate's patriotism is ridiculous.

2) Actually, he did condemn the words of his pastor, he just wouldn't condemn the pastor, which is understandable IMO. The pastor played a large role in his life. Would you condemn your uncle, for example, if he said that? Of course not. That doesn't mean you agree with him, though. Also, how does that make him anti-white? Like Jomo said, he was raised by a white mother and grandmother and is half white himself! I see no evidence pointing to him being racist.

3) This is partially politics and partially truth. A lot of what he says is for political reasons, but a lot of what he stands for is for his own ideological reasons. Just because people want to hear what he stands for does not mean he stands for only what people want to hear.

4) He does promise change and actually there is quite a clear plan called "The Blueprint for Change" that you can download and read if you want: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlu ... Change.pdf.

5) Well yes, he is playing off his policies to get popular support. That's how you get elected.

6) I keep hearing this argument and it confuses me to no end. Why is the word "liberal" viewed as such an insult recently? Yes, he is a liberal. If you're extremely conservative, that is an ideological difference, but being liberal is not inherently bad.

7) 100 times represents 3% of his total votes and according to the New York Times, that small percentage of votes were "used [...] to protest bills that he believed had been drafted unconstitutionally or as part of a broader legislative strategy."

Hmm, I guess the McCain campaign's strategy has been working a little after all. That's actually not true. Here's what FactCheck.org has to say about it:

The education project described in the Web ad, far from being "radical," had the support of the Republican governor and was run by a board that included prominent local leaders, including one Republican who has donated $1,500 to McCain's campaign this year. The project is described by Education Week as reflecting "mainstream thinking" about school reform.

Despite the newly released records, there's still no evidence of a deep or strong "friendship" with Ayers, a former radical anti-war protester whose actions in the 1960s and '70s Obama has called "detestable" and "despicable."

Even the description of Ayers as a "terrorist" is a matter of interpretation. Setting off bombs can fairly be described as terrorism even when they are intended to cause only property damage, which is what Ayers has admitted doing in his youth. But for nearly three decades since, Ayers has lived the relatively quiet life of an educator. It would be correct to call him a "former terrorist," and an "unapologetic" one at that. But if McCain means the word "terrorist" to invoke images of 9/11, he's being misleading; Ayers is no Osama bin Laden now, and never was.

9) First of all, he did not go to a Muslim school when he was younger. He went to a school that happened to have a majority of Muslims in it. It was the best school in the area and did not have any religious affiliation. He grew up with his mother, who was either an agnostic or athiest. He was a member of the same church for 20+ years. He never associated with his father and only saw him once when he was a child. Even so, his father was thought to be an athiest! None of his immediate family is Muslim. The only possible family members who could be Muslim would be those on his father's side in Africa, who I don't think he even associates with at all. Either way, your intolerance of Islam is deeply disturbing and I suggest you research the religion yourself and the people who practice it. I'll bet there are many more Muslims who live near you than you know. Islam is not a terrorist religion. There are a lot of bad people who consider themselves Christian. Does that mean Christianity is a bad religion promoting bad behavior?

10) I mostly agree, but it's not like he's not promoting the end of the 2nd Amendment or anything.

11) This is true, but I view that as a good thing. Differing opinions, I guess.

12) What evidence do you have to support this? When has he appeared to be ignorant about any issue at all? If anything, it can be argued that McCain is more of a celebrity than Obama, since his campaign is the one bringing up non-issue aspects of Obama or making up catchphrases such as "Drill, baby, drill" or "We're a couple of Mavericks who are gonna shake up Washington" or "We're gonna put government back on the side of the people". The last two don't even have any substance or meaning to them at all. They just sound nice. I don't actually think McCain is a celebrity instead of a politician, but if it's going to be argued at all, McCain is the celebrity.

Reasons to vote FOR Obama
1: Fantastic speaker
2: Greater chance of success to aid economic problems in the short term future
3: Inspires like few presidential candiates in recent memory could ever have
4: Biden, while a shady guy in my opinion, has much more experience than Palin at this time.

I agree with all of these except the part about Biden being a shady guy.

[mren]

Taking a tougher stance on nations that 'oppose' you is not the solution. Conflict is a human inevitability.

National pride that is wrapped up in 'Proud Americans' is dangerous. Be grateful for where you are born and proud of the opportunities you have but don't be blind in your following.. if you travel the world outside your borders and listen to what people have to say you might see your country differently.

Remember that this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwjlUMoLVvA is just an Americanized version of fundamental Islam.

[blauenlanze]

I actually read about Bob Barr this weekend, definitely an interesting guy. Too bad he never had a shot! I think him or Ron Paul would have made great Presidents.

I was reminded of "South Park Republicans/Libertarians/Barry Goldwater types" and the more liberal Libertarians.

[jomotopia]

We can also expect our dependence on foreign oil, contribution to global climate change, and global food prices and shortages increase if Obama is elected. His opposition to domestic drilling is outrageous and is incorrectly based on the ridiculous assumption that all the land that oil companies currently hold the rights to for drilling will miraculously ALL yield oil. He apparently does not understand that the oil companies buy the rights to drill because they are speculating that the land will yield oil. Senator Obama also seems to believe that increasing ethanol production will help the current situation, yet he fails to realize that global food prices have soared because of our government's backing of corn production for the purposes of producing ethanol. While I commend his proposals and efforts to increase spending on other sources of renewable energy, ethanol is a "solution" that I cannot support due to its adverse effects on food prices and the fact that it may actually produce more greenhouse gases than it offsets.

every time i have heard Obama speak on this issue he has said that yes, we do need to drill domestically for oil. but has also said, correctly, that we can not simply drill our way out of dependence on foreign oil, because we simply do not have enough for how much we use. this is why he pushes alternative energy sources such as nuclear, wind, tidal, solar, etc. i do not recall ever hearing him push ethanol as a solution, though it is possible i missed it when half of the debates consist of both candidates repeating the same speech we've heard 100 times before. i agree that ethanol is not a solution, and government subsidies and the food crops used for its production are a bad thing. but overall, Obama seems much more interested in and on track for true energy solutions.

[Eric1285]

We can also expect our dependence on foreign oil, contribution to global climate change, and global food prices and shortages increase if Obama is elected. His opposition to domestic drilling is outrageous and is incorrectly based on the ridiculous assumption that all the land that oil companies currently hold the rights to for drilling will miraculously ALL yield oil. He apparently does not understand that the oil companies buy the rights to drill because they are speculating that the land will yield oil. Senator Obama also seems to believe that increasing ethanol production will help the current situation, yet he fails to realize that global food prices have soared because of our government's backing of corn production for the purposes of producing ethanol. While I commend his proposals and efforts to increase spending on other sources of renewable energy, ethanol is a "solution" that I cannot support due to its adverse effects on food prices and the fact that it may actually produce more greenhouse gases than it offsets.

every time i have heard Obama speak on this issue he has said that yes, we do need to drill domestically for oil. but has also said, correctly, that we can not simply drill our way out of dependence on foreign oil, because we simply do not have enough for how much we use. this is why he pushes alternative energy sources such as nuclear, wind, tidal, solar, etc. i do not recall ever hearing him push ethanol as a solution, though it is possible i missed it when half of the debates consist of both candidates repeating the same speech we've heard 100 times before. i agree that ethanol is not a solution, and government subsidies and the food crops used for its production are a bad thing. but overall, Obama seems much more interested in and on track for true energy solutions.

Obama is strongly in support of increasing ethanol production:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/us/po ... hanol.html

He calls it a "transitional" product, but it's just a loosely disguised play for the agricultural industry. A better example of a transitional product might be hybrid cars, although I'm generally against those too.